Welcome to Episode 30 of Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents
In this episode, we delve into the often overlooked issue of men's mental health during the postpartum period. Join us as we discuss the challenges and triumphs of navigating postpartum depression from a father's perspective.
Men's Mental Health in the Postpartum Period
Sam shares her partner Mitchell's struggle with postpartum depression and the difficulties they faced in finding adequate support. The conversation highlights the lack of resources and understanding available for men during this crucial time.
The Stigma and Shame of Men's Postpartum Depression
We explore the stigma and shame associated with men experiencing postpartum depression. This segment discusses the societal pressures that discourage men from expressing vulnerability and seeking help.
The Role of Medication and Alternative Support
The episode examines the role of medication in treating postpartum depression and emphasizes exploring alternative forms of support. We discuss the importance of a supportive network and the value of professional guidance.
Building a Strong Parenting Partnership
Mitchell's transformation from struggling father to a confident and supportive partner is a central theme. We highlight how he learned to handle parenting challenges, such as the baby's crying, and stepped up during a pivotal trip to Germany. The importance of time, communication, and shared responsibilities in overcoming postpartum depression and strengthening the parental partnership is emphasized.
Key Takeaways
- Men's mental health during the postpartum period is often stigmatized and under-discussed.
- There is a significant gap in resources and understanding for fathers experiencing postpartum depression.
- Exploring alternative support systems beyond medication is essential.
- Open communication, time, and support from partners are critical in overcoming postpartum depression.
- Breaking the stigma and encouraging open conversations about men's mental health are vital.
Join the Conversation
We invite you to join the discussion on men's mental health during the postpartum period. Share your experiences and thoughts on social media, and let's work together to break the stigma.
Thanks for listening to Touched Out: A Mental Health and Parenting Support Podcast.
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Stay tuned for more insights, tips and personal stories on parenting and mental health.
Thanks again for listening and keep on keeping on!
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Sam: We would like to acknowledge the traditional
00:00:02
custodians of this land.
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We pay our respects to the Elders past, present and
00:00:07
emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and the
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culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
00:00:14
across the nation.
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Carter: Warning this podcast contains explicit language and
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discusses sensitive topics related to mental health
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childhood trauma, birth trauma, abuse, miscarriage and suicide.
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Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:30
If you find these subjects distressing or triggering, we
00:00:33
recommend taking caution and considering whether to proceed
00:00:36
with listening.
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If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to
00:00:40
a mental health professional or a trusted individual for support
00:00:43
.
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Your wellbeing is our priority.
00:00:45
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Touched Out
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podcast.
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Today we reconnect with Sam from Wollongong and discuss her
00:00:52
journey through the ups and downs of new parenthood.
00:00:54
Sam shares her partner's struggle with postpartum
00:00:57
depression and the inadequate support that left them both
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feeling isolated and ashamed.
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We tackle the broader societal challenges men face when opening
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up about their mental health, especially the pressures that
00:01:08
push men to share their feelings , only to be met with shame.
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Our discussion points out the inadequacies of community
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support systems for men and questions the medical
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profession's sincerity in addressing no life's been tough.
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Speaker 3: So take a breath from everything right here and now.
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Take some time, it's alright, you'll be fine After touch of a
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cat.
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Take all night, you'll be fine, it's alright After touch of a
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cat.
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Carter: Okay, so today we have Sam from Wollongong.
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I was lucky enough to already have a conversation with Sam way
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back at the beginning of the podcast, when I was still a
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little freshie to the podcasting world Super fresh.
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Yeah, I think you were like episode four.
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Unfortunately, the recording didn't save, so we lost an
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entire conversation, but we're back for round two and we'll get
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it going again.
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Sam: So thank you yet again for joining me no, no, no, no, no,
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no, no.
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It's actually really funny because life has changed so much
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since that conversation of where I was at last time.
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So when we were talking last time, you know I was in the
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depths of I think she was 10 weeks old and my partner was in
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a deep, deep hole of postpartum depression in men about because
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I thought it was valid, considering the absolute hell
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that he had gone through with, you know, community health, you
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know, trying to find help, various different outlets.
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It just didn't work.
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And while my sentiment still sticks of newborn life sucks, I
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think I think it's almost more important to talk about the
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men's mental health, especially as a mother who I fully expected
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to get postpartum depression.
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I am at higher risk for it.
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I have depression and anxiety, but coming from when she was 10
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weeks old to she's six months, in four days or something, three
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days, and how much and I don't know if I can reiterate this
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more is how much time really has helped him.
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And hopefully this could speak to a mother who's going through
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the same thing as me, or a man who's listening who you know may
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not be willing to, you know, kind of recognize that that's
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what's going on or is, you know, has no idea this is going to
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end at all.
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That's not to say that he doesn't have his bad days, but
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when we were, you know, at 10 weeks, and we were talking, you
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know there was a lot of tears, a lot of tears.
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There was so many fights, the worst fights we've ever had in
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our life, in our relationship.
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You know, we're seven and a half years now and we've
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actually just come back from a trip from germany.
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But he actually proposed congratulations thank you, thank
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you, yeah, yeah, so that that's .
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That's how different it it was.
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So he's gone from being in the depths of an extreme self-hatred
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and to the point, you know, he told me he regretted getting me
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pregnant.
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He regretted everything about this and essentially his pride
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and his, you know, his determination of sticking things
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out was the only thing keeping him around.
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But if he had been given an opportunity to leave, he would
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have.
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Carter: Yeah.
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So just to put it into perspective, I reckon our first
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conversation would have been around about the start to
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mid-March, so April, may, june, july, so four months ago.
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We're looking at so in four months.
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I'm just trying to go back that far in my mind and remember
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some of the points that we did discuss At the time.
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Your now fiance it was seeking support.
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Sam: Yes.
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Carter: And not getting it.
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He was getting kind of railroaded at every turn, yeah,
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and there was a lot of kind of accusations maybe being thrown
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at him by professionals that were like are you going to hurt
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your child or are you actively hurting your child?
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Sam: Yes, there was a lot of shaming him for going through
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what he was going through.
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You know a lot of mothers that go through postpartum depression
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.
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They get all the help in the world.
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You know there's a lot of help.
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There is still a stigma of shame like, how can you feel
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like this about your child?
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There was an extreme reaction from professionals of that he
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was.
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You know he was going to be one of those murder suicides.
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You know of the whole family.
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You know of the whole family and the fact of the matter is is
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that he just needed time and he needed a better support.
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You know, and that you know I was going through, you know, the
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fourth trimester.
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I was going through my body healing itself from burst.
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I was going through mattress sense and things like that, and
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I I had a newborn and that was my priority at the end of the
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day.
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I was at one point scared that he would hurt her, but only if
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he was holding her.
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He wouldn't just go out of his way, you know, to actually hurt
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her.
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So that's something that I'm still trying to.
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I've got my own sort of post-traumatic kind of stuff
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that I'm dealing with, you know, with his actions.
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So it's a lot of.
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I still get anxious, you know, when he holds her, but it's out
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of a different part of my brain.
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Carter: It's almost like a conditioned reaction.
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Is it Because of the early life ?
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Sam: Yes, yeah, it was completely conditioned.
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So in the beginning we sought help from community health and
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they the site this, like the head psychiatric nurse lady
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psychiatrist was like do you see a demon in your child?
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What was your childhood like?
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And it's like that's not actioning, like you're going via
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a textbook now and you're not actually actioning.
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The situation that's happening at hand.
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Carter: Yeah.
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Sam: You know, and you know that made him feel even crazier.
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He genuinely was like I'm actually insane, like I'm crazy,
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and they kept saying, like let's schedule you for a
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hospital stay, like a 72 hour in the mental health ward.
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The mental health ward in Wollongong is not good.
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It's actually not good, and neither is community health
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Wollongong.
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They were not very helpful.
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There was a lot of shame around him and like, oh, he's the
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father, he's supposed to step up , he's supposed to help the mum,
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blah, blah, blah, and it's like he's having a stress response
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reaction.
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That's what he's doing, that's that's, and he even recognizes
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it now he he's having a stress response reaction to the
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complete and utter change in our life that you know, people talk
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about it, but there's not enough education on it.
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There's also not enough education on men and them
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dealing with this.
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You know, women, we do, because it's growing inside of us.
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Our brain's already ticking at, you know, 10 million miles an
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hour for our future.
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But for men it's sort of like they don't feel the kicks.
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You know when they start or they don't.
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You know they don't go through the hormonal changes.
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You know, in the same sense that we do, and so when it comes
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.
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Of course there's going to be a stress reaction.
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Of course it's going to be like you know, alarms going off in
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their head like, oh my God, I have this tiny human being that
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I have to now care for and provide for and everything else.
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So of course it's going to be some sort of thing.
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Some men take to it better than others on, you know it's like
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grieving.
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Carter: You know everybody's got their different way of handling
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it um I, I just I get so, so angry at this.
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There's such a major push in society for men to open up and
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oh, share your feelings it's not .
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It's okay to not be okay and like all of these, you know
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really really cool and positive initiatives to bring men's
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mental health into the forefront and make positive changes in
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society, but there is still so many people that are hell-bent
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on spinning the same fucking narrative.
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Sam: Yes.
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Carter: You follow me on Instagram.
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I'm not sure if you've seen my experience recently.
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Sam: Yes, I did.
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Carter: I was pretty upset With the men's mental health campaign
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and what WIN TV did to my story .
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It took 10 minutes worth of footage and took one line, which
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is where I said I was scared I was going to hurt my child and
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span the narrative and made me out to be a potentially violent
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man that's what they did to my partner and then they fucking
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wonder why men are so hesitant to talk about their feelings.
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It sucks, it's shit, and I felt so horrible and so, so, so
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deflated after that ran that I just I wanted to pack it all in,
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I wanted to stop the podcast, yeah, and I just I wanted to be
00:10:31
like I don't want to be a part of this, this push and this
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drive to change society's views on men's mental health and oh
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100, and I can.
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Sam: I can totally understand why you feel like that, because
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you know, even like panda and things like that, they were not
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that helpful.
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They're like what?
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Like, if they're going to be brutally honest about what they
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are, they're really about women and motherhood and changes for
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them and their mental health and their, you know, postpartum
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depression in women it's really not there.
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For men it really isn't.
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And it's really kind of irritating because at the end of
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the day, you can have mothers, you can have aunts, you can have
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all the family to come around and help you out and clean up
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and blah, blah, blah.
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But the support network that you have, that's your partner and
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your partner.
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You know, like I love that man.
00:11:19
You know I remember even telling you when we first were
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having this chat.
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You know I loved him and I was there for him, regardless,
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because plenty of men stay.
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You know men have to not put up with, but men have to go
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through their, their partners go through postpartum depression.
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They feel helpless, you know, and so it would be hypocritical
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of me to be like, well, get out of my life, you're unsafe and
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everything else, like he was a man who needed support.
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Carter: Yeah.
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Sam: And, at the end of the day, like he's the man that I, you
00:11:50
know, he's the person that I turn to when things go good in
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my life and things go bad in my life, and to see him in such a
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way that was, you know, just so defeated and so angry at the
00:12:03
system.
00:12:04
You know that is supposed to be .
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You know, supposedly help through crises which are
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actually making it worse and more angry and creating more
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issues in my life than just helping and doing what we asked.
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You know, like it is no surprise that men are hesitant
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towards mental health or even medical professions because they
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don't take them seriously.
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Oh, you're a man, suck it up.
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It is what it is.
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You know you're a father.
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Now Step up.
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Carter: It seems like we're really at this kind of crossroad
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and it's a really defined kind of line in the sand when it
00:12:40
comes to men's mental health issues and like pushing for that
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change.
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I feel like we're really close but we're not quite there.
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Sam: It's not quite close enough .
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Carter: And yeah, and look, I understand that your and your
00:12:53
partner's experience with Panda wasn't great, but I will
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advocate for them a little bit and say that they are making a
00:13:03
lot of moves and a lot of changes in the men's mental
00:13:05
health space.
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I'm not sure if it's live as of yet, but they are planning on
00:13:10
going live with a men's mental health texting service.
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Sam: No, they've gone live with that.
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Yeah, they've gone live with that.
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Carter: So things like that.
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There is a lot of initiative and a lot of push for men's
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mental health.
00:13:21
The whole Wynn TV thing had nothing to do with Panda and I
00:13:26
was in contact directly with them after it aired.
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I told them how I felt, how angry I was, how upset and how I
00:13:33
felt betrayed and I was quite rude.
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I was quite rude with my emails and I was like you know, I want
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to know who signed off on this.
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I want to know who approved this edit.
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I want, like I was, like I demand satisfaction, basically.
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Sam: I would be too, I would be too.
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Carter: And they were just like.
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We are so sorry that this has happened.
00:14:00
Unfortunately, we had no say in that final cut.
00:14:03
That's the journalists.
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We've been in contact with Wynn TV and told them that they need
00:14:09
to provide their journalists with more training when it comes
00:14:13
to topics such as this that are sensitive.
00:14:15
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:16
Journalists will never change, that's just they have to create
00:14:21
the story for the views, right.
00:14:22
Sam: It's a clickbait.
00:14:23
They're the original clickbait creators.
00:14:25
Yeah.
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Carter: And when I asked Panda for the footage in its entirety
00:14:30
so I could post it so at least the world around me knew what
00:14:36
the real narrative was.
00:14:37
They were more than happy to oblige and they were incredibly
00:14:41
apologetic.
00:14:41
And they offered me supports and offered me a lot of
00:14:47
different kind of things to make sure that I was okay, so yeah,
00:14:52
it sucks that you guys haven't had a stellar experience with
00:14:55
them, but yeah, it would be a disservice for me to not
00:14:59
advocate for them.
00:15:00
Sam: Of course, and look, everybody's going to have a
00:15:02
different experience.
00:15:03
I just find that a lot of the mental health thing, you know,
00:15:06
it is a lot of time.
00:15:07
It's almost a different form of grief, really, and because it's
00:15:12
not really, it's not a permanent depression, it's a
00:15:17
time depression.
00:15:19
You know, they do think that it lasts about two years within
00:15:22
mothers and I assume that it lasts about two years within men
00:15:25
.
00:15:25
You know the push for medication.
00:15:29
It doesn't always work because antidepressants, realistically,
00:15:33
you know it just makes you not react.
00:15:35
That's what it is.
00:15:36
It's an inhibitor.
00:15:37
You know that it works for people.
00:15:41
It doesn't work for others and that's fine, like whatever works
00:15:43
for you works for you.
00:15:44
But you know, when we've told community health, you know he's
00:15:49
just come off antidepressants.
00:15:51
He doesn't want to go back onto it because he'll just become
00:15:55
useless to me and in all the sense of this family that we now
00:15:59
have.
00:15:59
You know he needed medication that was quick, that would
00:16:05
address the situation when he was having an episode.
00:16:08
Carter: No, that's right.
00:16:09
I think I remember us talking about this last time and they
00:16:12
kind of treated him like he was an addict.
00:16:14
Yeah, he was just trying to get pills.
00:16:16
Sam: Yes, yes, you're like look, valium works.
00:16:18
I gave him some of my leftover Valium some, you know, way back
00:16:21
when and it works.
00:16:24
It keeps insane and everything's hunky dory.
00:16:27
But they were like no, but we're going to give you
00:16:30
mitrazapine, which is really there for sleep, but it just
00:16:34
helps people sleep.
00:16:35
I don't know why people encourage mitrazapine.
00:16:37
It's quite a heavy drug.
00:16:39
They try to put them on valdoxin, another heavy
00:16:42
antidepressant.
00:16:43
I'm on a lot.
00:16:44
I was on valdoxin and you know you can only take it at night
00:16:48
and it makes you sleep all the way through.
00:16:50
And you know he it wasn't like there was no hearing of what we
00:16:55
were saying you know he had come off antidepressants.
00:16:58
They don't he.
00:17:00
It's not a man that you know it works for he.
00:17:02
You know there's only so much talking that he can do and it
00:17:06
wasn't helping.
00:17:07
He needed something to treat the situation immediately, to
00:17:11
defuse the bomb.
00:17:12
That's what we needed.
00:17:14
Carter: I still find it so odd that some GPs are so willing to
00:17:18
prescribe really, really hectic heavy-.
00:17:22
Sam: Antidepressants.
00:17:23
Carter: Any type of drug.
00:17:24
Really really hectic, heavy.
00:17:26
Any type of drug Like.
00:17:27
Before I got my ADHD and autism diagnosis, the first
00:17:29
psychiatrist I saw wanted to put me on a fucking what's that
00:17:33
antipsychotic that is renowned for you like sleep eating half
00:17:38
way?
00:17:38
Sam: through the night.
00:17:39
I know the one you're talking about, though.
00:17:41
I know the one you're talking about.
00:17:43
Carter: It is a really intense antipsychotic.
00:17:45
Yeah, but like that's.
00:17:47
When I told my wife, she was like Jesus Christ, you don't
00:17:51
need that.
00:17:51
No, and he wanted to put me on hemipsychotics.
00:17:54
Yeah, and then I found a different psychiatrist and I was
00:17:57
like I'm fairly certain I have ADHD and he was like okay, we'll
00:18:01
fill out this questionnaire and do this and do that and do this
00:18:04
.
00:18:04
And then like two weeks later it's like yeah, man, you've
00:18:07
definitely got ADHD.
00:18:07
Have some fucking Vivanze.
00:18:13
Sam: Which is just the Aussie riddle, that's just the Aussie
00:18:16
Adderall.
00:18:16
That's all that is.
00:18:17
Carter: Ritalin or yeah, it's just amphetamines.
00:18:20
It's pharmaceutical speed.
00:18:22
Essentially, yeah, Not even essentially literally.
00:18:24
Sam: No, it's literally legal speed.
00:18:26
Carter: Yeah, but like what a sliding scale from a heavy
00:18:31
antipsychotic to an upper.
00:18:33
Sam: Yes, you know.
00:18:34
Carter: Yeah, it's ridiculous.
00:18:35
So I mean, there's a massive lesson.
00:18:38
There is always get a second opinion and don't just trust the
00:18:41
doctor if you feel like that's not right.
00:18:45
Sam: That was the thing with community health.
00:18:47
So they were like no, we're not going to give you Valium
00:18:50
because obviously you're junkies and asking for it.
00:18:52
You know not that we've experimented and obviously it
00:18:56
works and things like that, and that's what kept him sane.
00:18:58
We're going to give you mitrazazapine, a drug that I've
00:19:02
used before.
00:19:02
Would never recommend it, but you know if it works for you or
00:19:06
for you.
00:19:06
And then you know when you know they would repeatedly come to
00:19:11
the house unexpectedly and you know when we started saying, no,
00:19:16
you can't come in, you know they would get well, why not
00:19:19
like?
00:19:19
Because they would just say can we come in and then go to walk
00:19:21
into our house before we've?
00:19:21
You know they would get well, why not like?
00:19:21
Because they would just say can we come in and then go to walk
00:19:22
into our house before we've, you know, said an answer and we'd
00:19:26
be like no, actually you can't, you can stay right where you are
00:19:30
.
00:19:30
And they'd be like but why are?
00:19:32
you in danger because yes, yes, that was also the other thing
00:19:36
they would call.
00:19:36
They would call him on daily and then it became like every
00:19:40
second day I'd be like you know how are you feeling?
00:19:42
Blah, blah, blah, and he'd just be like done with them because
00:19:44
they weren't helpful.
00:19:45
They weren't helpful questions, nothing about them was helpful.
00:19:48
And then they would call me.
00:19:50
You know we're all at home, they know we're both on
00:19:53
maternity leave, so we're both at home and they're like so it
00:19:56
was just Mitchell and it was really quite patronizing and it
00:20:00
was almost like degrading him down to a little boy, you know,
00:20:04
with issues, no, like dubbing on him to his mum.
00:20:07
Yeah, pretty much Like someone just spoke into him.
00:20:10
You know he didn't sound that healthy and rah, rah, rah.
00:20:13
And I'd be like, yeah, because you guys are calling.
00:20:15
And then I would rip them a new one.
00:20:18
I'd be like because you're not listening to us, you know, and
00:20:19
there was a lot of swearing on my end because I was like this
00:20:22
fucking bullshit, like what the fuck are you doing?
00:20:24
Are you just ticking off boxes or you're actually here to help?
00:20:28
Because it doesn't feel like you're helping.
00:20:30
And then you know they wouldn't actually hit that like they
00:20:33
would, they wouldn't actually apologize, they would do that
00:20:36
backhanded apology like well, we're sorry, you feel that way
00:20:39
but, don't, don't tell me you're sorry, I feel that way.
00:20:44
Suck my dick, um so, and then they kept.
00:20:47
They would tell me after every phone call.
00:20:49
You know, if you have a safe place to go, you should probably
00:20:53
leave him, jesus, you know, oh, they'd be like you need to call
00:20:57
the police on him the moment.
00:20:58
You start feeling unsafe and you need to get her and yourself
00:21:02
away from, away from him at any cost.
00:21:05
And I'm like you obviously have no idea what is going on and
00:21:09
you've, you've created a scenario in your head and in
00:21:12
your notes that he is some, you know, violent junkie, just a
00:21:18
ticking time bomb yeah, and it's like this is a man who needed
00:21:23
support, who needed a better support system and to not feel
00:21:28
like he was crazy, which you've actually made it worse.
00:21:31
Carter: Literally getting kicked while he was already down.
00:21:33
Yeah, it's really upsetting to me.
00:21:34
It was salt in the wound.
00:21:36
Sam: That's what it was.
00:21:36
Yeah, repeatedly.
00:21:39
Carter: That sucks, yeah.
00:21:41
So that was all.
00:21:42
That's all within the last six months.
00:21:44
Sam: Yes.
00:21:45
Carter: So, from then till now, what's changed?
00:21:49
What's the same?
00:21:50
What's the transformation?
00:21:51
How has he gotten to where he is now?
00:21:55
Sam: So I did a sort of sneaky and went to my a sort of sneaky,
00:22:07
and went to my like a GP not my GP but a GP and you know I sort
00:22:09
of it wasn't a lie.
00:22:09
I just elaborated on what the situation was, that my family
00:22:12
were coming down, they were coming down, they just weren't
00:22:15
coming down for as long as I said they were and I said, look,
00:22:17
I love them, but they give me anxiety.
00:22:19
I have a newborn.
00:22:19
You know, can I get some Valium ?
00:22:22
I'm not trying to be a junkie, I just need to get through the
00:22:27
next couple of months with them.
00:22:28
You know it's a cultural thing, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:30
They did come down.
00:22:30
There are.
00:22:31
You know I did need to use it myself, but I ended up getting a
00:22:37
good supply of it.
00:22:37
We still have most of it.
00:22:40
That's how little he used it.
00:22:42
He literally just needed time.
00:22:44
So I did things like and I spoke to, he got to speak to one of
00:22:48
his friends who, his wife, went through postpartum depression
00:22:52
and they he told me what he did with her to kind of help her,
00:22:56
you know, connect a little bit.
00:22:58
So there was a lot of bath time .
00:23:00
So you know she's not doing much, she's not running around,
00:23:05
she's not, you know, into the mud and the grass and everything
00:23:08
else.
00:23:08
But I just started to establish a daily, you know, seven
00:23:13
o'clock six, 30 bath time, daddy time, and that was me and her
00:23:19
and him.
00:23:19
And you know, I would hold her because, not out of fear that he
00:23:25
would just drown her in front of me, but it was too much for
00:23:29
him to touch her, so I would get him to pour the water over her
00:23:33
head or, you know, help, splash the water on her tummy and rub,
00:23:37
you know, rub her legs down with the baby wash and things like
00:23:41
that, and rub her legs down with the baby wash and things like
00:23:44
that.
00:23:44
Eventually I got him to he now after bath time.
00:23:46
We do bath time together as usual, but now, because she's
00:23:50
starting to sit up on her own, you know, there's splishy splash
00:23:53
time, so she gets a splishy splash and we create a little
00:23:57
bit of bubbles and things like that, and he watches her with
00:24:00
glee, he really does.
00:24:01
And straight after bath time he's the one that dries her off
00:24:06
and he's the one that puts her in her PJs.
00:24:07
I just lay it out and then he just goes with it, you know,
00:24:11
rubs her down and turns her into the greased up death guy and,
00:24:14
with moisturizer, puts a nappy a fresh nappy and her PJs on and
00:24:19
then she's ready for me to feed her for the end of the night.
00:24:21
He's gone from a man who any sound happy or just a noise out
00:24:31
of her would literally enrage him, has got turned into.
00:24:32
You know, he can handle her crying when I'm having a bad
00:24:36
time.
00:24:36
I'm having a bad night because I do notice I'm a little less
00:24:39
tolerant of her when I'm on my cycle or coming into my cycle.
00:24:43
You know, and I'm.
00:24:44
You know it's 3.30 in the morning and she's been an
00:24:48
absolute terror.
00:24:48
He can step in and just pick her up, feed her and get her
00:24:53
back to sleep.
00:24:54
You know it might take an hour and a half, but he can step in.
00:24:58
And I had a really bad night, bad night just before we left
00:25:02
for Germany, and I ended up smacking the wall because she
00:25:06
just would not stop.
00:25:07
She just would not stop and I was at my tether and it had been
00:25:11
a week of literal hell.
00:25:13
So I was like I'd been pushed to beyond my limit and I've been
00:25:17
like just go to sleep, just go to sleep, and then I've just hit
00:25:20
the wall at the cot.
00:25:22
Not because I wanted to hit her , I just needed to let out
00:25:24
frustration.
00:25:25
And he's instantly up into the room, pulled me out and I was
00:25:29
like what are you doing?
00:25:30
And he's like this is like staring at a mirror, a really
00:25:35
ugly mirror, and it doesn't feel very good and I need to remove
00:25:39
you from the situation and I'm going to take over.
00:25:43
And I was in tears, I was like sobbing, because I'm like how
00:25:47
could I be like this with my child?
00:25:48
Like she doesn't know what's going on, she's fresh to the
00:25:50
world, yeah, yeah, she's four months old, she's going through
00:25:54
the four months regression.
00:25:55
And he was able to step in.
00:25:57
And then I tried to take over and he's like fuck off, just
00:26:00
fuck off.
00:26:00
Go have a tea, go to bed, whatever, I don't care, but I
00:26:04
need you not to be near her.
00:26:05
Yeah, because it is so reminiscent of how I felt and
00:26:11
how I was.
00:26:11
Yeah, and it didn't feel good for him and I think that sort of
00:26:15
put things a little bit into perspective of him, like what it
00:26:19
was like for me to deal with him.
00:26:21
But that was all the time and you know, he's able to step in
00:26:26
when I just can't Before.
00:26:28
It would all be on me.
00:26:29
You know, does he love the crying?
00:26:32
No, does anybody like a baby crying?
00:26:34
No, you know what I mean.
00:26:35
Carter: Not at all Sadists, like babies crying.
00:26:39
Sam: That's 100% right.
00:26:42
Carter: So cool to hear that it's like his protective
00:26:46
instinct kicked in as a result of empathy.
00:26:49
That is also a result of lived experience and true experience.
00:26:55
Sam: Yes.
00:26:57
Carter: That's transformative man.
00:26:57
That's fucking cool.
00:26:58
That shows immense growth and immense understanding and
00:27:03
emotional intelligence.
00:27:04
Sam: Yes, go, go him yes, very much like I was.
00:27:08
You know it took me a while to process it because I was upset
00:27:11
with myself.
00:27:11
I was upset, I was exhausted from the week.
00:27:13
You know there was also that time of you know I was freaking
00:27:18
out about going to germany, about the flight, how she would
00:27:22
travel, because she didn't like being in cars.
00:27:24
You know it was just, it was, it was a whole thing and I was
00:27:27
getting more and more anxious.
00:27:29
And I've got, you know, I've got my comfort show, for you
00:27:32
know, when I'm anxious, so when I start putting it on Mitchell,
00:27:35
like my partner knows immediately like oh, she's
00:27:37
anxious you know, and she was a dream on the plane.
00:27:42
She slept most of the way.
00:27:43
She had a little bit of jet lag in Germany, not as bad as in
00:27:46
Australia, like coming back to Australia, but being over there
00:27:50
it was like he was amazing.
00:27:52
Like he was so amazing we'd be in the car.
00:27:55
You know she had a couple tantrums and you know, because
00:27:59
it was from where we were in germany, in the west of germany,
00:28:02
it was like a sick it was.
00:28:04
If it was just us, it would have been about a four and a
00:28:06
half hour drive to the neuschwanstein castle, which is
00:28:10
where he proposed.
00:28:11
But you know, with her we had to take more stops changes,
00:28:15
feeding, you know, get her out, let her stretch her legs, you
00:28:18
know things like that.
00:28:18
So it took about six and a half hours, which which is totally
00:28:21
fine.
00:28:21
She probably had two little tantras and he handled them fine
00:28:24
.
00:28:24
He was totally fine.
00:28:25
He just needed time.
00:28:27
This is a man that needed to adjust to this new life and he
00:28:32
is a man that takes a little bit more time, not out of because
00:28:35
he's stupid, he's incredibly smart, just because he just
00:28:38
needs time to absorb and process what's going on.
00:28:42
Yeah, and you know he was so good.
00:28:45
There were days where she, you know, because she's a FOMO kid,
00:28:49
so she wants to do everything and anything and see all of the
00:28:54
people, and he would just be like, go eat, let me take over.
00:28:57
Or like we went specifically over for a family wedding and,
00:29:03
you know, I got a change and things like that.
00:29:05
I'm trying to help out and there's wine and everything and
00:29:08
I'm trying to be a good mom and he's like it's all good, give it
00:29:11
to me.
00:29:11
I got it, it's all good.
00:29:13
And I was able to get changed and have a glass of champagne
00:29:17
and, you know, do my hair and makeup.
00:29:18
And you know, do my hair and makeup.
00:29:19
And you know there was a lot of love.
00:29:21
And in saying that in Germany we had like a village to help us
00:29:26
out, you know, and you know his dad's partner, she was like
00:29:31
let's go have a girly day in Bonn, which is about a half hour
00:29:34
, 45 minute drive from where we were, and he was like, yeah,
00:29:37
leave it with us.
00:29:38
I would never have thought I could do that a million years
00:29:40
ago.
00:29:41
I mean, it was with him and his dad, but Mitchell did most of
00:29:44
it.
00:29:44
His dad had to sleep for most of it and I just had a girly day
00:29:48
shopping and we had lunch and everything and I didn't even
00:29:50
have to worry, like I sent a message once saying is
00:29:52
everything all good?
00:29:53
And he just went.
00:29:54
Carter: Yeah, thumbs up.
00:29:55
Sam: Yeah, I'm not even concerned.
00:29:56
I'm not even concerned.
00:29:58
And when we came home, you know he said, look, she had a bit of
00:30:01
a fuss but she was fine.
00:30:02
She's had, you know, a nap.
00:30:04
We've had a lot of playtime, some tummy time.
00:30:06
We tossed her in the baby jail Like it's all good.
00:30:10
You know, and you know we were out for four or five hours and
00:30:15
you know, never in a million years would I think that I could
00:30:18
do that, you know, would I think that I could do that?
00:30:25
You know, even if he had support to help him, I can now
00:30:26
leave her with him.
00:30:26
You know, if I need, if I just need to run errands or I just
00:30:28
need a break, you know I can be like I'm going away, I'm going
00:30:33
to Woolies, I'm gonna pop to Baby Bunting, which is like 20
00:30:35
minutes away or something, and I know she'll be fine.
00:30:38
You know, is he?
00:30:40
Is he 100%?
00:30:41
No, he's not 100%.
00:30:43
Carter: No one is.
00:30:44
No one is.
00:30:45
Sam: I have bad days and I didn't even have it.
00:30:48
You know, there are times where I'm just like I am done being a
00:30:51
mum.
00:30:52
Carter: You know, I don't want to be a parent right at the
00:30:54
split second it sounds to me like he has been able to adapt
00:31:01
to rolling with the punches, yes , uh.
00:31:04
And it sounds to me like you guys exhausted all of the
00:31:09
professional help and it got you nowhere.
00:31:12
It was literally one step forward, 10 steps back, 100
00:31:16
steps back.
00:31:16
Excuse me, because, let's be honest, having postpartum
00:31:20
depression as a man for one it already sucks, because you can't
00:31:25
make sense of something that you didn't know you could get.
00:31:29
You can't make sense of it.
00:31:30
It's something that you have to adapt to over time.
00:31:32
It's going to take time for any man.
00:31:34
When it happened to me, it took time for me to realize and
00:31:37
process and understand and figure it out.
00:31:40
It was a puzzle.
00:31:41
It was a puzzle that I had to put together and I didn't have
00:31:44
the box, I didn't have the picture to look at.
00:31:45
I didn't know what puzzle, what picture the puzzle was going to
00:31:49
be once it was finished.
00:31:49
But I got there in the end and it sounds like that's what
00:31:53
happened.
00:31:53
But every time you guys talked to a professional and they were
00:31:57
like accusatory or belittling or dismissive.
00:32:00
It's like knocking that fucking puzzle to pieces again and here
00:32:03
to start fresh, because that would have ruined his confidence
00:32:07
as a father.
00:32:07
It would have ruined his confidence as a partner.
00:32:09
It would have ruined his confidence as a primary carer, a
00:32:15
support person for you, an advocate for you, an advocate
00:32:19
for himself.
00:32:19
And people fucking wonder why the suicide rate for men is so
00:32:25
high.
00:32:26
Sam: It's so high and it's it's really disheartening because I
00:32:29
am very like, I love men.
00:32:31
I don't like I love men and I I think they give a great balance
00:32:36
towards women and you know, it's it's really disheartening
00:32:41
that women can be as open and whatever.
00:32:44
And yeah, there are other stigmas that come with women and
00:32:47
mental health.
00:32:47
But specifically when it comes to parenting, you know that men
00:32:52
are, you know, seen as like they're the provider, they're
00:32:54
the ones that are support, like you know.
00:32:56
I mean, when we look at the fifties and the sixties and the
00:32:59
seventies, like men were literally there to have good
00:33:01
times with their kids and never deal with the bullshit.
00:33:03
And the women, you know, stayed at home and they cooked and
00:33:08
they cleaned and they dealt with everything, you know, almost
00:33:10
within silence.
00:33:10
But you know, we're in such a different age now where you know
00:33:16
men do want to be dads, they do want to do, you know, even the
00:33:20
hard stuff.
00:33:21
They do want to do it.
00:33:22
Yeah.
00:33:22
Carter: You know the emergence of the stay at home father.
00:33:25
Sam: Yeah, and like I remember, you know, even asking my partner
00:33:30
when we're on holidays, you know, do you still regret it?
00:33:33
Do you still regret all of this ?
00:33:35
And he said no, not even close.
00:33:37
You know, especially the way she's becoming really cool.
00:33:42
You know her little personality is coming through.
00:33:44
You know she's just developing more.
00:33:47
It really cool, her little personality is coming through.
00:33:48
She's just developing more.
00:33:49
It's cool.
00:33:49
We've just bought a high chair.
00:33:50
We're just about to start her on solids and give her a little
00:33:52
bit of baby led weaning and things like that.
00:33:54
So it's really cool.
00:33:56
And even he knows it's really cool sitting her light up.
00:33:59
When he comes into the room after he's been at work all day,
00:34:03
he said that's all freaking worth it.
00:34:04
She's no longer a potato.
00:34:06
She's a potato that smiles and there is give back now.
00:34:11
Carter: And I think that's also part of it.
00:34:13
You can have those shared experiences and feel like an
00:34:15
actual unit now, yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
00:34:16
Sam: He knows that when I'm done you know, like yesterday I
00:34:19
hadn't had a shower.
00:34:20
The previous day I had a shower the previous day.
00:34:26
I felt feral.
00:34:26
I was, you know there's a lot of vomit that I was getting a
00:34:28
little over it.
00:34:28
And you know he's come home from work and he's done a big
00:34:30
hour, you know 12 hour day and he's like you know, you're okay,
00:34:33
and I was like I'm just over it , like I haven't had a shower.
00:34:36
You know I didn't have a shower yesterday.
00:34:37
I just feel feral.
00:34:38
Like I've been cooking all day as well and, you know, playing
00:34:41
and everything.
00:34:42
And she was just resisting every frigging nap, no matter how
00:34:44
much I wore out, you know, and she'd only do really short naps
00:34:48
and I'm like honey, and that was really hard as well and I have
00:34:53
the possum's approach when it comes to naps.
00:34:55
But it's also like have a nap, mom needs a break.
00:34:57
And you know he was like go have a shower.
00:35:00
I got her and she like go have a shower.
00:35:02
I got her and she was pretty feral as well and I'm like look,
00:35:03
she's feral.
00:35:04
I don't.
00:35:04
You know, I don't know, because he can't always handle her when
00:35:07
she's feral and that's fair enough.
00:35:09
I don't want to handle them.
00:35:10
Nobody wants to handle a baby when they're feral yeah, but
00:35:13
resilience takes time oh, yeah, yeah there is a insane it's.
00:35:18
It's not a natural thing and he's like, oh, I got it, it's
00:35:23
all.
00:35:23
And he was just all loving.
00:35:24
He took her, he played with her .
00:35:26
You know he changed her.
00:35:27
You know he's like, do you think she's hungry?
00:35:30
And I was like, yeah, probably.
00:35:32
And he's like, right, and he just made her a bottle and he
00:35:35
was dancing around and playing with her and I had a long, nice,
00:35:39
long hot shower and then he was like, you know, then I told him
00:35:43
what was going on, what the, what the dealers like dinner and
00:35:46
things like that.
00:35:46
We were talking about work and it was all good.
00:35:49
And you know he has these, you know, other days where he just
00:35:53
can't.
00:35:54
You know, I mean I don't generally get that luxury, but
00:35:58
there are times where I do and I , you know, I look at him and
00:36:02
the way he is with her and it's just like.
00:36:04
You know, I would never have imagined that.
00:36:07
You know, when I first spoke to you, he now takes over for the
00:36:11
weekend.
00:36:11
Saturday mornings he does, and then I take it like he lets me
00:36:15
have a bit of a sleep in.
00:36:16
That sounds horrible saying, oh , he lets me have a sleep in.
00:36:18
That's not meant to sound like that if people are listening.
00:36:20
But on Sundays he takes over as well.
00:36:23
He gets up, he lets me sleep in , he gets her, he changes her,
00:36:26
he feeds her, he does a big play and lets me wake up whenever I
00:36:29
want to wake up or whenever I do wake up, and that's also been
00:36:33
really freeing for me as well, that I get asleep.
00:36:37
Yes, it's on the weekends, but he's working all week and he
00:36:40
does two 12-hour shift days.
00:36:44
Carter: You're at that point where you guys can support each
00:36:47
other in day-to-day life and it's more of a cohesive unit.
00:36:51
Sam: Yes, we go shopping for food together.
00:36:53
That I never thought that would happen.
00:36:55
He carries her in the carrier on the front, so she loves it
00:37:00
and she just hangs out in the front.
00:37:02
She'll have a nap.
00:37:03
You know we go food shopping.
00:37:05
You know we get the prayer mats , so we can do a really nice big
00:37:08
weekly shop and it's just really nice to do those Baby's
00:37:13
getting grumpy.
00:37:14
Carter: Do those things together and that we can be a unit and,
00:37:19
you know, actually support each other where it's a give and take
00:37:23
on both ends Whereas before, makes me really really, really
00:37:27
happy to hear that, and I'm really, really glad that you
00:37:30
guys are in a better place and he is in a better place and it
00:37:33
sounds like he went through the ringer, but he did the work
00:37:36
himself and he has honestly, it's very exciting to be able to
00:37:39
come to you and be like hey, yeah, that's some good news.
00:37:41
Sam: When your message saying let's set up another date and
00:37:42
you were like I've got so much to tell you.
00:37:43
Carter: I was like, hey, that's some good news.
00:37:44
When you messaged saying let's set up another date and you were
00:37:45
like I've got so much to tell you, I was like, oh, this could
00:37:48
go either way, so I'm glad it went the way it went, yeah yeah,
00:37:52
it's awesome.
00:37:52
Before we wrap up, is there anything you want to throw out
00:37:56
to the world?
00:37:56
I'll let you go soon because baby obviously is starting to
00:37:59
get a little bit like mom.
00:38:00
I bit like mom.
00:38:00
I want attention, yeah.
00:38:03
Sam: Yeah, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
00:38:06
Yeah, like this is a testament to what it is.
00:38:09
And men really do need a little bit more time than women
00:38:16
because obviously we have that nine month you know, you know
00:38:18
cooking process before it all comes to fruition.
00:38:21
There is light, you will come to it, whether it's five months
00:38:26
down the track, six months a year down the track, but it's
00:38:29
it's actively, you know going, you know trying to make, you
00:38:34
know, even if it's just bath time, even if you just fill up
00:38:36
the tub, even if you just sit there and give her a bottle or
00:38:40
you just watch it play in baby jail or tummy time or what it's
00:38:45
like, small steps are always going to make it better and it
00:38:48
does get better.
00:38:48
I will always say that newborn life sucks, but in saying that
00:38:52
if you are struggling and the conventional ways have not
00:38:58
worked, time will help.
00:39:00
Time will totally help.
00:39:02
Carter: Time being open and talking it out with anyone that
00:39:06
you feel trust with yeah.
00:39:09
Anyone Talk it out.
00:39:11
Always talk it out, and if you feel like you don't have anyone
00:39:14
I have said this multiple times on other episodes I'm here.
00:39:17
Anyone listening feels like they're alone.
00:39:19
I am here, my inbox is always open.
00:39:22
Am here, my inbox is always open.
00:39:29
And last time you and I spoke, I had um floated the idea of
00:39:30
having your partner come on and have a chat to me and you said
00:39:32
no fucking way in hell will that ever happen it's probably still
00:39:36
in no way, and no way because he never wants to.
00:39:38
Sam: He doesn't want to relive it, but he might be more open to
00:39:42
it at some point.
00:39:43
I think it's something that like he is very ashamed of what
00:39:47
has happened.
00:39:48
I think that shame will carry with him for a while.
00:39:50
Yeah.
00:39:52
Carter: You know that shame is a hard place to be, because that
00:39:55
shame has such power.
00:39:57
Sam: Yes.
00:39:57
Carter: And the only way that you can take that power away
00:40:00
from that shame is to talk about it.
00:40:02
But it really is a double-edged sword.
00:40:04
Sam: It is.
00:40:05
It's a very brave thing to actually it really, it really is
00:40:09
talk it out yeah, because I don't think he realized, because
00:40:12
I know he had blackout moments from it.
00:40:15
So it's funny because the other day we were we were doing the
00:40:19
dogs meet together and we were giving up like his portions for
00:40:23
the week, for the month and stuff like that, and he put on a
00:40:26
song and it was a song that was played like through the first
00:40:30
like three months, and I burst into tears.
00:40:33
And he was like what's going on , like can you please change it?
00:40:36
And he's like why?
00:40:36
And I told him what happened, like why, and I said it because
00:40:39
it reminds me of, you know, this song was playing at our worst,
00:40:43
at at your worst, and I just couldn't handle it.
00:40:46
And he was like it wasn't all bad.
00:40:48
And I was just like, no, it was all bad, you know Time will
00:40:53
heal those wounds further as well.
00:40:55
Carter: You'll look at those things in two years and you
00:40:56
might even be able to have a little bit of a laugh about them
00:40:58
.
00:40:58
That's the weird way in which our minds can cope with the
00:41:04
traumas.
00:41:05
Sam: Yeah.
00:41:05
So I think he sort of blacked out how bad it really was.
00:41:09
You know, I was sleeping on the couch, he was sleeping in our
00:41:12
room.
00:41:12
There were days when we just barely spoke to each other and
00:41:16
it's like no, I know, it was all bad.
00:41:19
You know I'm surprised we've lived through that.
00:41:22
Carter: Well, yet again, I'm stoked to hear that you guys
00:41:25
have gotten through it.
00:41:26
You're light at the end of the tunnel.
00:41:28
You're now engaged.
00:41:29
He's now you know has the confidence to you know to be a
00:41:33
father and to be a provider and a future husband and all of
00:41:38
those awesome things, and it's given you the opportunity to
00:41:40
heal your own issues and things and worries and just heal from
00:41:47
you know, giving birth oh yes.
00:41:49
You know it must have been an absolute nightmare for you guys
00:41:53
to go through, but, yeah, super proud of you both.
00:41:55
Well done.
00:41:55
Thank you for coming on again.
00:41:57
It's been awesome to catch up.
00:41:58
It's awesome to see Bubba again .
00:42:00
She's grown a little chunker.
00:42:02
Sam: She's so fucking big, literally off the scale for all
00:42:07
of the centauri.
00:42:09
Carter: It's so weird.
00:42:10
You know my youngest is one tomorrow.
00:42:13
Oh, happy birthday, thank you.
00:42:15
So when we spoke, you know she would have been.
00:42:17
I don't even know, I'm shit at math like seven months.
00:42:21
Sam: Seven months, Seven eight.
00:42:22
Carter: Her birth both feels like yesterday and like 10 years
00:42:25
ago.
00:42:25
It's, it's fucking weird.
00:42:30
Sam: I can't believe she's one already, but I also can't
00:42:31
believe that she's not older and she's not like getting her
00:42:34
first job.
00:42:34
Carter: Hurry up, that's get out of our house.
00:42:35
It would be awesome if she would hurry up and start
00:42:39
sleeping through the night, cause you know she's a year old
00:42:42
and she still doesn't do that.
00:42:43
Sam: Oh look, babies are going to baby, that's the attitude
00:42:47
that I take yeah.
00:42:48
Carter: Awesome.
00:42:49
Well, thanks so much, sam.
00:42:50
I'll let you get on with your day and enjoy.
00:42:53
Thanks, mate, bye-bye, bye-bye.
00:42:57
Speaker 3: Wake up, it's another day.
00:42:59
Try and find a way to make it so my life's a better place.
00:43:06
If there's one thing I see, then your only thing is me Just
00:43:14
knowing that I'm trying to make a change.
00:43:16
Can I put it all on me, responsibilities, and all the
00:43:26
other nonsense coming by repeating it?
00:43:28
Thank you Doesn't seem too much Just to ask for love, cause
00:43:46
there's many things that I'll do over, and I've got a lot, but I
00:43:54
won't give up On those many things that I'll do over.