Ep 32 | Kindness & Courage: Navigating Grief as a Solo Parent

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation.

Warning this podcast contains explicit language and discusses sensitive topics related to mental health childhood trauma, birth trauma, abuse, miscarriage and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If you find these subjects distressing or triggering, we recommend taking caution and considering whether to proceed with listening. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional or a trusted individual for support. Your wellbeing is our priority. Hello and welcome to Touched Out a mental health podcast for parents. I'm your host, carter, and today we are speaking to Kate. Kate shares her story of becoming a solo parent after the sudden death of her husband. She discusses the challenges of grief, dealing with mental health and raising her children. Kate emphasises the importance of accepting help, taking care of oneself and finding support in the community. She also talks about the different ways her children have processed their grief and the importance of open communication and understanding.

Okay, so today we have Kate. Kate is from Romsey and she has three biological children and two stepchildren, all in their 30s. Is that right? That's correct, Sorry two in their 30s. You've got a 14 year old, a 16 year old and a 28 year old.

Yes, correct.

I'm not reading too well this morning. I've just yet as usual when I record I've finished up a 12 hour shift. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you very, very much for joining me. You were actually one of the, I'd say, first five people that put through an application and, through no fault of your own, I think, I lost your application and we lost contact for quite a while. So better late than never.

No worries, yeah, no, I'm really happy to be here and I guess just to be able to share a story is a fantastic opportunity.

So thanks for allowing it More than welcome, all right, so I mean, your story is a little bit of a rough trot, so I guess everyone needs to buckle up and yeah, let's get it started. Tell me a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your history.

Yes, I would say so. If we start with sort of Kate's history, I think I really had a great run for a long time. I would describe my life, as you know, being lots of rainbows and unicorns and largely you know, I came from very middle-class upbringing. My dad was a firefighter, my mum was a homemaker, went to a school here locally in Macedon Ranges and then ventured out into the world and explored and learned and did lots of wonderful things. I met my husband in my 30s and I met him over in and we were together for 17 years, married for 15 years and we had three children together. So he had two children from a prior marriage. We had three children together, so he had two children from a prior marriage.

We had three children together and in September 2017, he took the kids camping and when he left he wasn't feeling particularly well. He had a bout of the flu. Anyway, he got very, very sick while they were away and contracted pneumonia and died. So all of a sudden, those rainbows and unicorns just seemed like I was in a completely different world and it just happened so quickly. So one week was waving goodbye to them and handing him a Panadol and the next week was sitting in an ICU unit and what I really wanted to share as a result of that story was a couple of things. So I think there was being suddenly a solo parent and in a different world than the world that I knew previously, dealing with grief, dealing with kids and dealing with mental health. So I guess all of that sort of collided in that sort of you know, september and I thought you know, the first.

Still to me, the first three months after Tim's death were a bit of a blur, but I have, you know, I definitely have moments still where you just you know grief never leaves you. There's always a part in your heart for that person. But I think what I wanted to share was what were some of the things that got me through that period, that got the kids through that period. And if people are still listening at this point, I would also say going on to have a happy, healthy life and letting these it may not be grief for some people, but those things in life that get you and take you and just tumble you over, that you can go on and have a happy and fulfilling life. Someone had said to me you know, let the grief shape you and not define you, and I think that that has just been a beautiful lesson for me and one that I've tried to pass on to the kids.

Our three biological children were very young at the time eight, 10 and 12. And Tim's other kids were both in their twenties at the time. So, and I can see how it has shaped all of their lives and you know it's a juggle as a parent when you're trying to help them and deal with your own loss as well. So I thought I wrote a few notes to help me stay on track. But there was a couple of things that really impacted me during that time, and it wasn't really till I came. I don't think you're ever really out the other side, but you know, until you actually start to process, that there were things that happened around me that were just so helpful and some things that I needed to change. So I'll start with one of the things that I needed to change was I'm not someone that asks for help.

I have been fiercely independent most of my life and my mom tells me some great stories about, you know, when I was sort of two and four and I'd say, no me, do it, me, do it. And I think some of that's you know carried through. I was the breadwinner in our household and Tim was like the wind beneath my wings, so he did all of the you know before and after school things and kids, sport and all those other things that keep parents really busy. And I remember he said to me one point you know, I don't know what you'd do without me. And well, now I know what I would do. But I remember thinking the same thing. We were a team and so when he passed away and it was so sudden, I had this big job. I worked for one of the big four banks. I had a very big job. I had lots of people, lots of demands on me at work. Tim had a business, he had a Jim's Mowing franchise, so I couldn't manage. I'm not a gardener, and so you know that was kind of, and I had clients calling me and I had three kids, and so it was just.

It was a high stress time and I just had to ask for help. And you know, one of the I think one of the biggest help for me was community. To this day, and this is actually part of the reason why I said, hey, I'll do the podcast as well, because I want to pay back for that beautiful experience that I had. So you know, for example, my fridge was constantly full of food for three months but my people came and just took my kids. They took them to.

They didn't miss a cricket lesson. They didn't like. Routine went on for them is probably better than saying life went on on for them. Obviously it was a huge adjustment for them, but I found it difficult to accept that help. I'm not really sure why, but I think because it made me feel like I wasn't on top of things. But I'm so grateful for it and people still to this day. You know I'll find that I need to be on a barbecue in Lancefield and at a netball game in Sunbury, and it just. You know I can't be in two places at once and I'm not a single parent, I'm a solo parent. It's just me. I don't get weekends off where they go to my partner. It's just me.

There's a massive distinction between single and solo.

Yeah. So I've really learnt to accept that help. So that was lesson number one. You know, accept help when it's. And the second I would say was people.

I worked in the airline industry for a long time and people said to me you know, it's really important that you put your own oxygen mask on first and, you know, then look after the kids. And this is one of the things that I think, in reflection, I didn't have. I needed someone to put the oxygen mask on me. I didn't have the strength, the energy to put my own oxygen mask on, which is again why I'm just so grateful for the community help that I got in that time, because that was them putting the oxygen mask on me and just making sure that some of those basics were. You know, we had meals on the table, the kids were, you know, socialising, they were at sport and those sorts of things. So I think that was interesting to me because I felt like I need to do this stuff for the kids, but I couldn't even look after myself in terms of, you know, just being overwhelmed with grief. So having other people put my oxygen mask on for me allowed me to be there for the kids, which was really beautiful.

Absolutely. That's an amazing sense of community that a small country town of Romsey can truly get behind. You probably wouldn't see that level of community spirit and rallying together in outer suburbs or inner suburbs of Melbourne or big cities.

Yeah, I often wonder that and I do see you know city folk, friends of mine, but I do think you know I'm far more connected to community here and again, so grateful for that. But a couple of things also just on. Solo parenting was so, again, just take all the help that you can. I think that's really important. But for me I found routine so and I think that was helpful for the kids as well, and I still have it to this day. I put a whiteboard in the kitchen which just had where everyone was, what the meals were that we're having, and it takes me maybe I don't know half an hour to 45 minutes each week to just populate that. But it was kind of like, after losing everything, just such a small gesture of structure and predictability in your life. So that was a really, I guess, a small thing that I did. That made a big difference. Now that we're a little further down the track, I just sort of I'll point to the whiteboard if the kids will say, mom, and it's like it's not on the whiteboard, it's not happening. So it just helps us come together as a family and also for us to see conflicting diaries and what have you, when we can work stuff out. So that's been a really good tip.

The other one was and this is obviously pre-COVID, but the beauty of online shopping and actually having Coles of Woolworths deliver your groceries. So I was a bit sceptical of it, but it was an absolute life changer for me in terms of time savings. I actually used to quite enjoy walking around the aisles, but I didn't have that time after impasse. So that was another one that just you know a small thing that you can do that just gave me back some time and time's so precious. And then the other was to just find time for yourself, right, and be really kind to yourself. Like it's okay if the kids have toasted sandwiches for dinner occasionally and you do or baked beans on toast. Like, give yourself a chop out and find that time. Whatever it is for you. Sometimes for me it's walking the dogs.

I love to swim. I generally love to swim because no one can talk to me when I'm under the water. But yeah, I think just what's that thing that you know gives you a little bit of peace and just takes you out of that everyday moment, because it can be relentless, and I actually found that was really good for my mental health. I think post and part of you know what I've been working on myself with various counsellors and communities is like anxiety for me. So you know I still have moments now that if the kids are out they're pretty good at texting me, but I'll just think the worst, the worst things happened.

So I think just having those little chop out moments for yourself where you break that cycle of negative thought or is really important and it's going to be different things for different people, but one for me, which is a larger chopper, is swimming, because all I think about is the lap that I'm doing. And the other one my daughter taught me, which is just touching each of your fingers. Peace starts with me and it's just a little circuit breaker. That has been incredibly helpful technique for me. If I start to worry, you know you bring those worries forward from the future. They haven't even happened yet and you've got enough on your plate. That's just been a lovely little circuit breaker for my own mental health.

Finger tapping is a very, very common stim for sensory-seeking autistic people. I myself and my wife are neurodiverse we're both on the spectrum and I am a big finger tapper. I find that if I don't utilize finger tapping or have like fidget jewelry I've got like a fidget ring that I can spin my stimming becomes destructive and I start like picking skin off my fingers and all of a sudden I've got bloody fingertips. So wow, so yeah, um. So finger tapping is a massive, massive stim for a sensory seek, yeah, so you know find your thing yeah, find your.

Find what you love and let it consume you. Is that the saying?

Yeah, I think so yeah.

Yeah, something like that. Awesome, I mean, you've thrown so much information at me, but we'll take a few steps back. We'll go back to online shopping. Absolutely amazing. Two of the three of my children, I don't think, have even seen the inside of a Coles or a Woolworths. I'm a 90s kid myself, so it will always be Safeway to me and no one can tell me different. We do all our shopping online pretty much because we don't really enjoy being in public. It takes a lot out of us. We're very much homebodies. We rely on each other for all of our needs to be met.

So the fact that your husband passed suddenly and you were just thrown into a completely new life I won't say starting over, because you know life's obviously a spectrum, but it was definitely a pause and a split clip and then you were starting an entirely new chapter Must have been incredibly daunting. So I am terribly, not terribly. I am empathetic to your loss. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been. I lost my mother, so I know grief from the standpoint of a son losing a parent.

But a couple of years ago my wife came home and she was like I have some news to tell you. I have put it off too long and like I'm dreading it, but I found a lump in my breast and my mom passed from breast cancer and I just remember this. Just this overwhelming dread washed over my entire existence and I just completely broke down and I just thought, like this fucking thing cannot take the second most important person in my life after my mom. And fuck, I was scared and it turned out okay, but just just even being teased with the chance of losing a partner yeah completely fucked me, yeah, so.

So for you to actually go through it and come out on the other side, okay, is really really inspiring, really inspiring. I didn't expect to get so emotional so early.

It was a messy middle for a long time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it, but you know, to see you here now, being able to talk about it openly and freely and allow yourself those vulnerabilities and be able to clearly communicate your self-care journey and smile about these things is truly a testament to all of that work that you put in. So I'm sure you've heard it from many people in your life that are close to you, but just from a random internet stranger. I'm proud of you, well done.

Thank you.

So I want to talk a little bit about your children and how their grief presented. You said that they were okay because the routine continued and everything, but obviously there would have been a lot of lows and a lot of highs, as grief tends to cause.

if you want to discuss that a little bit, so look, the kids are all great kids, want to discuss that a little bit. So look, the kids are all great kids. But what I found really interesting and I learned through this is that grief impacts everybody really differently. So one of the things in talking about communities the school which actually I'm going to do a shout out for Assumption in Kilmore, it's my wife's school.

So they had a counsellor here for us the day after Tim passed and she did a family counselling session and it was just beautiful, like it was. You know when I say beautiful, it felt like someone just gave us a big, warm, squeezy hug and we were all still obviously in, but that just allowed us. I think that early intervention just allowed us. I think that early intervention just allowed us to kind of go gosh, we've got a journey ahead of us here, we've got each other.

This is terrible thing that's happened, but there are people that want to help us so it was like I'm probably even putting too much word, too many words around it, but there was something about that immediate having someone there was, outside of the family, but brought us together and just allowed us to be vulnerable and talk about our fears and, you know, crying and all that sort of stuff was really helpful. And then I also was fortunate enough that we had an employee assistance program at work that I tapped into as well, so we did a session with them. I didn't enjoy, I think you've got to find. You've got to find your vibe and your person in these circumstances as well. And I didn't really connect with the EAP counsellor but I did get a referral to a local grief counsellor and my oldest. He just wouldn't do any of it and he was 13 at the time. But this is where I think the school were fantastic that they had a school captain at the time which my son was. I think the school were fantastic that they had a school captain at the time which my son was school captain last year, so he did do a great journey but that really impacted him. Ollie still talks to me about, you know, the school captain coming and sort of he wouldn't say giving me a warm up, but just talking to him and finding out what he needed at school. Did he want people to know? Did he not want people to know? Plus, I think, a few of the teachers were there. So Ollie found his own way through. But he's very quite. He internally processes things and, I would say, used his small circle of friends and family as his support group.

My middle son a character. He's very emotional and I think for his age at the time so he was about 10, he was really good at labelling his emotions, which were no terrifying is not the word but so upsetting for me, like you just want to fix it and you can't fix it as a parent, but you know his fear, his loss, his grief, his sadness, all of those things he was really good at labelling and he also uses his friend group a lot. But he really got into the grief counselling and he came out with little techniques that he would share with me and I really think that was so valuable for him at the time. He's now 16, is that correct?

Is that the 16-year-old now?

Yes, yeah. So he, you know he went through. I mean he does have anxiety and he's been diagnosed with that, but he knows that he's got it and he knows what his triggers are. But I'm so proud of him and even now, like we went through, we went through a bit of a rough patch, even about 12 months ago, where you know he gets it's anxiety, but it'll be it's fear of things and it's that real sense of loss and grief that just comes back to him.

And you know it's so hard for a teenage boy to not have their dad. I think it's hard for everyone to not have their dad. But I think he and Tim were they had a, they would sort of take energy off each other. And he's our little extrovert and you know he loves his sport and all those sorts of things. So I think I'm so proud of him for he still, to this day will say, actually I need to go and see someone. So he has got ongoing, you know, counselling and he uses that when he needs to use it. And you know, to have a 16-year-old son that will say to me Mum, I think his name is Matt too I need to go and have a session with Matt is really, really awesome, but he does worry me just in terms of he's got a big. I can see that Tim's and this is not a judgmental thing Tim's left a big hole in his life and I just want him to fill that with the right things, not the wrong things. So that's, and he's a teenage boy, so I sort of go there is this path that he needs to go through, but just really sort of making sure that he's got good influences around him, that we have open dialogue All of those sorts of things are really important. So he's probably the most visual with his grief and when he's in a good place or not a good place, which is actually really helpful for me as his parent. But at the same time, it's really terrifying because I can see it with the other two. I don't necessarily know. They're far more internally with how they process their, their grief.

My daughter also went to grief counseling and she um, you know that was really good for her as well, like that worked for her. She still loved going to Rosemary was her name. She stopped going to see Rosemary. I think that she felt that, um, I mean, now that she, she's older, her reflection is that she didn't want to burden me. So that makes me, you know, it makes me love her, but it also makes me sad. But I'm happy that she had that path.

So I think for each of them it's been very, very different journeys, and how grief manifests is, you know, it's really interesting Like Ollie will like acknowledge something like Father's Day, whereas the other two will just be. It's just too much, it's too overwhelming. I just leave me alone on that day and I have my own. I have my own triggers and things as well. So I think what's been really important for us is to be able to have those conversations at the whether it's at the dinner time table or it's in the car together about how we're feeling or what we miss, and I'm really conscious of keeping Tim's memory available to them. So you know we go and visit Tim's parents.

They live in Perth, you know I make sure that they still have strong connections with that side of the family, which is also helpful for them.

But again, community's been a big part in that. Sport's been a very big part in their mental health and wellbeing, diet. I mean, you know some of those things I think, well, if I can't get in and help you with the anxiety and let you sit in it for a while, which I think I've learned is sometimes that's the best way to do it. Just make sure that I'm you know they're not in a spiral. But they need to express their grief, they need to feel it. But when they are doing that, I also want to make sure that they're sleeping, that they've got you know, that they've got a bit of routine around them and not everything's sort of crumbling. So, yeah, I think that listening to kids trying to have a dialogue about what their triggers are, just so you're aware, because sometimes I think you need to go to those spaces and that's what grief's about Like you've got to feel that loss. So it's not stopping them from feeling it, it's being there to catch them on the other side of it.

Yeah, and being really in the moment just with kids. In general, it's so easy to brush what they're telling you to the side because that's how it was.

Oh, hello, can you?

hear me now? Oh, hello, can you hear me now?

Yeah, I can.

Yep, sorry, excuse me, it's so easy to brush a kid's feelings to the side because that's how it was when I grew up. You know kids are to be seen and not heard. So I still catch myself and my wife will catch me doing it when my son, who's on the spectrum, or my daughter, who we suspect is ADHD, is kind of in meltdown and they're completely dysregulated and they're like throwing hissy fits or they've stubbed their toe or something like that, and my immediate reaction is to fix and not to let them feel and I'll be like you'll be okay, and I stop myself and I'm like that's so condescending and that's so dismissive of what they're experiencing right now.

And how can I expect for them to grow up emotionally regulated and emotionally intelligent human beings if their safe space is already dismissing their views of the world? So now I'm very much like trying to be like are you okay? Not, you'll be okay, are you okay? What can I do for you right now? If you don't know what I can do for you, I'm happy just to sit with you, feel your feels. Pain is a real thing. Just do what you need to do. I'm here for hugs or kisses or whatever you need.

And you know what that just be with you Sometimes. I found that heartbreaking and I'll just give you an example. Remember, one night and it must have, it would have been sort of within the first six months and, um, all three of them came into my bedroom and we just all sat on the bed and cried. But there was something that was so beautiful about doing that together and you know our little snotty faces and red eyes and but I am grateful that they feel that with me, that they can be that vulnerable and likewise I can be that vulnerable with them. So I do think, yeah, the overwhelming need as a parent and a provider to fix stuff. It's hard to. You know, I find my head because I'm in HR as well. Right, so I'm about fixing problems and problems with people. Find my head because I'm in hr as well.

Right, so I was all about.

You are literally a fixer with people, yeah and to just be and let it sit and sit in the pain and the uncomfortable uncomfortable, but is, I guess, something else that I've learned? But it's just so strengthening at the at the end of that, and also, I think it's given them their own coping skills, rather than me saying, hey, let's do this, and kind of, yeah, as I, as you said, just brushing it under the carpet, just sitting with it and being with it and letting it manifest is helpful.

It's very helpful. I don't know how we got to this stage in society where talking about those things is uncomfortable, is so uncomfortable. The entire spectrum of emotion is a natural human response to outside or inside stimulus and every all of its normal. Sadness is normal, grief is normal. Missing someone that's no longer there is completely normal. But for some reason we're just like.

This is fucking uncomfortable yeah, and and we anger right, they the being really cranky and pissed off that this awful thing has happened to me. And the other interesting ugly emotion that I felt a lot, and I think the kids have as well, is jealousy. So I mean and it is a yucky, I don't like jealousy, but I remember early, you know well, I still do feel it now occasionally, but I remember early days I went just down to the IGA it must've been Easter weekend or something and I felt like everywhere I looked, all I could see was families, you know, mom, dad, kids, and I was like that is just so unjust and I kept you all. And you know it was just this awful, awful feeling. But yeah, it's, it's your loss and your grief, and the kids will say the same thing.

You know there's so many things that still happen today. I mean, we've still got such a long way to go with gender diversity and family constructs. But you know we're having a Father's Day this, we've got a Mother's Day that, we've got Father and Son nights or you know, I think people talk special people now, but all of those things were really difficult for us to kind of face into. And you know, no, dad's not coming and you know, okay, we'll have a like just having to ask their uncles or whatever to be their special person. Just, it's all tough to navigate and it's all. Just all these little things are triggers and I think people, unless you go through it and I recognize my own ignorance until I went through it as well and I'm sure that I offend people every day with stuff that I think and the unconscious biases that I carry around but I think kindness is something that everyone can do. That is extended to every situation where people have got their backstories. So that's my other thing be kind and courageous.

I mean be kind, just in general. That's kind of my mantra with life is be kind and have fun and don't let your fun impact the fun of others. We're all in it together. We're all just monkeys sharing a giant space rock at the end of the day, if you look at it in its most basic of terms, Relatively young species when it comes to the age of the universe.

So I like how far we have come in emotional intelligence in the past. You know, decade or two decades or however long you want to kind of go with. And then the introduction of the internet and the ability to connect worldwide and create communities worldwide is both an incredible and positive tool, but can equally be destructive and negative and yucky. But I think we're stepping in the right direction and we're getting there. I did want to duck back to talking about being in public and seeing people with their families and feeling those feelings of hatred, and it's all too familiar for me. It's just such a weird thing because you can never predict how it will manifest and to this day, you know, my mum passed 2015, December 2015. And to this day I'm still finding new triggers that I didn't know existed. I'll watch my kids with my wife.

Yeah.

And I get fucking angry. I still get angry, not at my wife, like I love the fact that they are able to have those experiences, but I get angry that I don't get to have those experiences with my mum anymore. And my wife never got to meet my mum and she grieves. Mum passed almost three years before I met my wife. Every Mother's Day, my wife will cry with me because she was robbed of having a mother-in-law.

Yeah.

She was robbed of those experiences and my wife loves gardening. My mum was a gardener and, like I always, we always talk about just this perfect little like summer day where mum comes over and hangs out with her grandchildren and hangs out with her grandchildren. My wife and her get out and do this big working bee in the backyard and the kids are all involved and they've all got their little shovels and mum's drinking wine and my wife's drinking beers and they're all just sitting there hanging shit on dad because he refuses to do any of the gardening as well. She's fucking angry too. She's like I don't get that experience and that sucks. But yeah, it's horrible and it's a horrible thing that one day we'll have to go through.

Yeah, yeah, and I think that anger. You know, if you think you know people love to. Also, when you lose someone, shove that bloody, tubular grief curve underneath your nose. But do you know what, like I go, yeah, I think two things. I go.

Yes, you feel all of those emotions but it doesn't necessarily work in that sort of it's not something that you come back and forth. And, as you said, right, those triggers I can't remember what it was, but I did have one the other day, completely out of the blue. I was like, oh wow, I'm feeling it they continue to come. But I also think that grief I've tried to reframe this, that grief, I've tried to reframe this that's my son would say don't speak, HR, let's HR speak. But to make it a positive that I sort of go.

Grief is that reminder that I still love him and I miss him, which has also just been another helpful sort of circuit breaker in my own thinking, rather than it doesn't mean I don't go there, I go there a lot about like, why did this freaking happen to me? But I do love being able to connect that grief to the love that we had and that I still have for him. Yeah, and I encourage the kids to do the same things. Okay, that's those feels. That's dad, that's remembering and feeling that love that you're still carrying for dad in your heart. It's nice.

And the thing that people also don't understand or don't really kind of equate to grief, is the positive feelings as well. You can have positive grief experiences. We are very, very active in talking about my mother with my kids and, like, from a young age, my daughter. I've got a photo just up here on the wall of my mum. We had never told my daughter, my oldest Hendrix, who that was, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I'll tell you again anyway, one day, you know, she walked up to the photo and she was looking at her and pointing at her and I said who's that baby? And she goes that's Nan Nan.

And I'd never told her anything about that photo. I'd never told her that that was my mum. Like we didn't even call her nan nan, she would. She would have been um nana, yeah, um. So that's nan nan and I said okay, who's nan nan? She said that's your mummy and I said how do you know my mummy? And she said she comes and visitors, visits me on my birthday and it fucking gets me every time. But I'm not crying for sadness because that's beautiful and that's such a cool experience that I've had with my daughter that I wouldn't have had if mum was still here. I mean, I'd always 100% prefer her here, but it's still pretty cool.

You've opened up a whole other vibe to talk to. But I feel Tim's presence a lot, and so do the kids, and you know, there's some moments where that's just such a strength for you guys both going now, such a strength for me and it might be something like, you know, I can be just be having the most shit day and I'll walk in and see a little white feather and I go. You know, I got you honey. I am doing this, I am doing this on my own and, look, I have lots of, I have lots of conversations with Tim and it's really important to me.

You know, I married him, I loved him, we had three kids together and I think that conversation you've just shared with your daughter, I encourage the kids likewise. I love that. It's so true, right? There's so many happy moments and so many beautiful memories and we have lots of rituals. I think these are another great, I guess, connector through grief. But we have a lot of great rituals that Tim established in our family. He was a great adventurer, so we have a little. Whenever we go on holidays, we, you know hashtag nutbags on tour or adventure adventure and they're all little nods to him and you know the legacy that he's left.

Yeah, and that's how they live on. That's, you know that and and that's beautiful, it's. It's just, it's it's strange. Uh, grief is strange. It does weird things to the people and you know, the dark humor can come along and you, one minute, you can find yourself making really inappropriate jokes that people that didn't know the person that passed away would be mortified at. But we're totally okay to make the jokes because we're fucking dealing with the grief and I think you know all of those tools and tactics and ways in which we do grieve are all leading to healing.

Yeah, I agree, and that you know where we sort of started with that. So I think there's lots of people who like to just put it in a box and particularly death, people don't want to talk about it. But I think that I love that. Let it shape you, not define you, like you know again, because we do have a life ahead of us and I think you know, particularly with our biological kids, or even actually Tim's other kids, they've got full lives to have ahead of them and this shouldn't stop them from moving ahead. But of course, it's going to shape them. They lost their dad when they were young. So I love allowing them to say, yeah, this is a part of your life, but it doesn't need to stop you from being the best person. You're having the best life that you can have and it's also okay to some some days to sit in that grief. It's that is part of allowing to shape you.

So, yeah, that is part of allowing to shape you. So, yeah, Visit the grief, Stay for the weekend, but don't move in. I think I really really like kind of to visualise the things in which we discuss and in my mind there you're saying you know, let it shape you and not define you. And in my mind I think about a rock, like a rock on the beach, and if that rock just stays in that one place, the waves of grief and depression and sadness and all of that will hit you and shape you. But if you just continue staying in there and you don't move past it and you don't move on, it'll erode. That rock will erode and you yourself will erode.

So, yeah, super important to feel it, allow the feelings in, but don't live in it, Don't let it define you Literally, don't let it just be your existence. It's very much smile and the whole world smiles with you, but grieve and the whole world could potentially turn its back, which is super scary. The love and the community in times of need and not being too stubborn about it, not being hardheaded and being like I can deal with this on my own, Throwing yourself into life admin, instead of actually confronting those feelings of grief and anger and sadness and going through those stages and returning to those stages, just allowing yourself.

Yeah, I was one of the other things I guess that helped me early days. It's a bit of a sad story but at our primary school there was four families that lost a parent and, um, there's a beautiful little memorial garden there. But each of those other families reached out to me early days to say you got this, it's going to be okay. And that group are still, you know, sort of really like we have it, we know like we really know what it's like and I think that having been through that experience gave them the confidence to kind of reach into me.

And I think what I guess what I want to say to people is if you've got someone and they're experiencing grief, I would take the bet that they would rather you lean in sorry, another HR word but they would rather hear from you. Then you go oh, I don't really know what to say, so and I don't want to upset them then not be there Like that. Those people that actually, like two of the parents I didn't even know you know one of them I knew quite well they kind of also made it okay for me, like they sort of if there is such a thing as normalizing grief, like it made me go all right. Yeah, I can see these people. They've got children, they're still in primary school, they've lost their partner, they've been through this and they were all there to kind of catch me on the other side. So I do think that's another sort of pay it forward thing that I feel, something that I will do in terms of people die, unfortunately. So you tend to know people where this has happened.

It's like an intrinsic grief mentorship. It's like they're passing the torch and giving you permission to grieve.

Well, funnily enough, there's like a widow's, which is such an awful word but it's. I mean, it's how people find other widows on Google and stuff. But there's this widowed support group. It's just been awesome and I say to people you know, occasionally I'll go and have a widowed lunch. I'm like I know it sounds like really shit and really boring, but we're actually really great people and it's actually just good to be with people that have, you know, had had the same experience. You know, you can talk about all the shit that happens in life, but that that I think people's, because death is such a taboo subject generally. I am making a general statement.

People's tendency is to not step in and go. Are you okay? Um, or just be like, just be there. I had a girlfriend who just sat here for a couple of days and just made cups of tea and didn, was just here and it was so valuable, whereas there's a lot of people that are like God, that's a bit awkward and they step away from you and you really. Well, for me, and I would say, you know, in my widowed group, common thing is, where are these people, where is this community? And I was just so fortunate that they were here for me, because I wouldn't have asked for it, and I don't think I would be where I am today if people hadn't have come around and supported me and also, just let me be, let me be that snotty, miserable bitch that was, you know, thinking this is it. My life is going to be shit, and you know, and they were there sort of chipping away and you know, giving me respite when I needed it, but being my cheerleaders as well.

So, yeah, I think I would say to people if you're wondering if you've got that friend that's lost someone close to them, don't like they've got enough loss. You know, step in and just be there. You don't have to do anything, just be there and let them know that you're there.

Yeah, yeah, my best friend, his grandfather, passed away. I'd say like three years, four years, I want to say four years ago, and he didn't ask me to go to the funeral. I'd never met his grandfather and I rocked up the morning of the funeral to his house. He's like what are you doing? I'm going to the funeral. He's like why? I was like, why wouldn't I? You are my like, you're my brother. We're family. You have lost your grandfather. I've lost my grandfather too. We're family. Like I'm here for you, you don't need to talk about anything Like I'm just here.

Like I'm just here, that's all you need to know. I'm just here Because he had a missus at the time who needed some support, and that's just how it is. I think a lot of people who back away because they're not used to those types of feelings or being able to express those types of feelings, or even maybe not in a negative way, but lacking empathy and perhaps internalizing what you're putting out, which is your grief and you crying. They may receive that and feel like that's on them. They might be trying to fix it. They might be kind of trying to make sense of it from a personal place for them. So I understand why some people step away. But the more we talk about these things and the more we get these types of conversations out into the open across the world, the more normalized our shitty feelings are going to be, and you know, people die every day.

One of the things that the kids have all expressed or said to me is yeah, and it is true. I think as an adult though, you kind of tend to be a bit more like oh, you know stuff, you or whatever. But my kids have all had moments where, you know, people have said things like actually, oli said to me once one of his mates so he's the one that he's internalised most of it, so he's at uni now and he said one of his mates that he went to school with at his graduation he did a speech and acknowledged his dad and at the end of the night one of his mates said to him oh, I didn't realise that you'd lost your dad.

I just thought he was a deadbeat and had taken off, went and bought a pack of smokes, yes, but all of that because people haven't seen you know, I guess they haven't seen their father that they carry this burden, that when people ask them about like well, you know what's your dad do, that they'll, like all of them say I have this thing before I say he's passed away, I go, oh my God, I'm going to have to manage your shock and your. And all three of them have said I had experienced, I lead with it now where I just say to people you know I'm widowed, or I mean I'm thankful I've repartnered. I just try to get it out of the way because it can be awkward. But it's something that the kids have said, that for them, dealing with adults like other kids will go be a bit more. No, sorry, that's a bit shit, but whereas adults this really odd response to it and then they all find that they're carrying the burden of that person's shock or that person's awkwardness.

But that has been a common we often. We often laugh about it at dinner where someone go, what does he tattoo? And they'll sometimes be a bit you know, a bit cheeky about it. No, you're not much these days.

or yeah, I always. I always have this kind of thought in the back of my mind when, when my mum comes up in conversation and and um, that's leading to me having to say, like my mum's passed away, there's always this part of me that's just like oh, here comes the physical response to prove how sad they are for me.

Yeah.

Like oh no, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And it's like it's really over the top because they really need to bring it home that it's an upsetting thing. It's like yeah, I fucking know my mum's dead. I would much rather and look, I'm not saying that it's bad that people react that way, because death makes people do weird things especially if it's you know death of someone that they don't really know about and have no tie, but have an emotional tie to you. I'd much prefer them just be like oh, that's shit.

Yeah, me too. I actually, I actually, and like when we're in the hospital, when I say banned, I had so many of the doctors and nurses, you know, coming up saying I'm sorry. And I said my Tim's sister, my sister-in-law, was with me at the time I said you need to tell them to stop saying sorry, like I don't need to hear fucking sorry, like I just don't need to hear it. And it is one of the things I'm very, you know, for people listening. People would rather hear from you than not hear from you. But I do. It's something that I don't say to people, so I will do what you said, but I will say are you okay, can I help? Or I'm here, or anything that's what really pissed me off.

Yeah. So I've tried really hard to stop saying sorry, because with this podcast we do talk a little bit of um, you know the deaths of loved ones and whatnot. So I have tried to stop saying I'm sorry to hear that or I'm sorry for your loss, and I have began implementing empathize with your experience, because sympathy is shit. No one wants sympathy, no one wants you to feel sorry for them. But empathy is genuine and yeah, and that's that's them genuinely being like I can put my feet in your shoes and walk a mile through shit and and that's that's them genuinely being like I can put my feet in your shoes and walk a mile through shit and and know where you're coming from.

But yeah, just anyone listening, and if there's anyone around you that's going through some sort of grief, don't say I'm sorry for your loss, because every time it happens there's there's kind of a devil and angel. It's like part of me wants to be like shut the fuck up. Another part of me wants to be like shut the fuck up. Another part of me wants to be like I appreciate that, because you're awkward now and that's fine, let's be awkward together. And there's a part of me that wants to just be a cheeky little asshole and be like why'd you kill her? Fucking cops are going to want to have a word with you, friend. Why are you sorry? Why are you sorry that my mum's dead?

my mum's dead. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, it just feels like someone's just giving you a greeting card.

Yeah, it's a hallmark response yeah, it's 100% what it is. It's, yeah, odd. Well, we'll move on from the grief discussion, because it has obviously taken up a majority of the podcast, as well as majority of our lives moving forward. What does the landscape look like now in terms of your family dynamics? You know you've got two of them in in in their 30s a 28 year old, a 16 year old and a 14 year old. So tell me a little bit about your day-to-day life. What are the self-care tactics that you still implement to this day, and how do you see your future panning out?

oh gosh, great question. Well, you know I have a rough plan, but we all know that. What's that expression? God laughs at those that make plans. But look, we are okay. So I did.

In terms of self-care, I also recognised my role that I had at the time. I just couldn't handle that. So I left that and went to a different, just a different environment and a different role. But I've since changed again. I feel like I've got some of my work mojo back. I love what I do and I'm working for a great organisation. So I think you know.

So, from a career perspective, back on track there, kids are all doing really well, so, so proud of all of them. So my and I guess there's a little heartache in this as well I was thinking when you're talking about your children and your mum, but the oldest has he lives in Austria. So Tim's oldest son, dave, is in Austria and he's got two children of his own now and that has also been, I guess, a touch of heartbreak for me, because they call, they refer to Tim. It's funny, nan, nan. They refer to Tim as Dad's Dad and they're just gorgeous little replicas of you know I can see their dad-dad in all of them and you know, I'm so fortunate that Dave and Jojo, they're still part of our family and the five kids have a very strong bond. So there's also something that they have that I'm not part of, which I love for them. So Dave's doing something that they have that I'm not part of, which I love for them. So Dave's doing well.

Jordane's getting married to her partner in December, so I'm thrilled for her, and one of the things that Tim was insistent on from his hospital bed was that I deliver the vote for marriage equality. And so Jordane's marrying her partner, emma, and I just feel so privileged to be a part of a part of that and to represent her dad. So all of us are going. She's in Perth, all of us are going for that, so that she's great. Ollie started uni. He's really, you know, he's leaps and bounds, I guess is, you know, the 16 year old's probably the one that I, I just he's. He's in, he's in a good place, but he's. I just need to feel like I just really got to help navigate him through those next couple of formative years.

The vulnerable years.

Yeah, yeah, but he knows what he wants to do. He's got a job. He's also someone wherever we go. So, yeah, he's good. But I have got my arms around him not to say I haven't around the others, but differently for him. And, yeah, my daughter's a thriving, sensible young lady that I'm very, very proud of. And for me, I have met a lovely partner who's very different to Tim but has taught me that, you know, your heart grows, so there's room for both of them. He's very supportive. The kids love him. We have a long-distance relationship, so he's a police officer and that works for me as well. Like having a long-distance relationship is great.

But you know, future State the house that I'm in at the moment Tim and I bought together but we created to be sort of a teenage. We were thinking about the kids' teenage years. So for the time being, I'm happy here. But what's been really funny for me in the last, I would say, six months is I was really attached to the house and now I'm in a point where I go. Actually, I think that I'm probably ready to do something different, but I'll see the kids through school and, you know, travel adventure.

I think, if anything, it's made me appreciate, like next year I will be the age that Tim was when he died. So you know, for me there's kind of well gosh, I've probably lived half of my life. Anyway, how do I fill that cup, like that back end of it, to do all of like the no regrets type stuff? So you know, make sure that I am, I'm looking after myself, I've got my friends around me, I'm filling my own cup. So, yeah, I think life is. I'm so grateful for the time I had with Tim and you know, the life ahead of me is not what I thought it would be, but I'm going to make the most of it.

Yeah, awesome, awesome. It's awesome to hear everyone is going so well. It's a testament to you and all of the work that you did. It's a testament to the community that rallied together to help in your time of need and allowing you to be and allowing you to grieve. And my main takeaway in the entire conversation is the most important things are to feel the grief. Allow yourself to feel the grief and never stop giving the little nods, never stop seeing them in everyday things.

Yeah, I think that's right. Small moments, you know those small moments, they matter and sit in them and notice them.

And just honouring them, honouring those little things. I'll wrap it up with this, the last thing about my mum. She was really into tarot, so she's got a pack of angel cards that I pocketed before my sister could, after she passed, and when I am especially grieving and having a really, really hard time, I'll pull them out. And the last time I pulled them out was when my daughter and I had a proper conversation about the death of my mum.

It was a hard one and I pulled out the cards and my daughter was like what are they? And I was like this is my mummy's cards, and when I feel like I need to talk to her and get some guidance from her, I pull them out. I'm the only person that has touched them, apart from her, since she passed, so they really are a part of her. And I don't know if I do it correctly because I'm not a tarot card reader, but I shuffle them and the three cards that just like jump out or like fall through the deck are mum's answers. And the last time I did it, I pulled out gardener.

Yeah.

I pulled out parent and I can't remember the third one, but my wife was there and she was like get fucked, it was just completely perfect. And I haven't touched them since. I haven't needed to, because it all summed I think it was death, I think it was death parent and gardening.

So you know, my wife gives nods to my mum every day by keeping our garden alive. It's something she'll pass on to our kids and that's something that they will keep alive. We've got a little ornament from Nan Nan's garden that we took with us. That's in our front yard now. It's a little butterfly and it's just all of those little bits of symbolism and little nods and stuff that just keeps them alive.

Yeah, yeah, if you take a moment to notice, you'll notice it. Yeah, they never leave us.

Take the glasses off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll notice it.

Yeah, they never leave us Take the glasses off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, kate. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your journey, and I really, really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me on.

No worries, kate, you have a great day you too. All right, bye, bye, bye.