Faith, Fear, and Freedom | Escaping a Cult & Finding Strength

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation. And she was like smacked and told not to cry, which is, you know, a lot for a young teen to mentally.

It's a lot for anyone. It's a lot for anyone, mate.

Yeah.

When mommy was a little girl and mommy left her dad, and when daddy was a boy, he got bullied really bad. When mommy met daddy, they felt something neither had. Then mommy became a mommy and dad became a dad. Now you're screaming at your brother in his leg or underfoot. We're trying to do the best we can, but it's not very good. Daddy's really sorry. He didn't mean to shout. We all get a little touchdown. We all get a little. We all get a little. We all get a little touchdown.

All right. Today we have a good friend of mine, Lockie. Lockie is a father of three children and he resides in Queensland. How are you going today, lockie?

Not too bad mate, Not too bad at all.

Good to see you, mate. It's been a hot minute since we've spoken somewhat face to face. Yeah, it really has, eh it has. So, for the listeners out there, why don't we start off with a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your family?

I guess normal 36-year-old dude. Three kids five, seven and 13. Technically Jaden's, not biologically mine, but raised him since he was one, I think one and a half.

Yeah, that's the 13-year-old.

Yeah.

Okay, yeah, so he considers you a dad. All of that, yeah, Yep, beautiful. Now you have a little bit of a different story. You, from what I understand, were raised in for lack of a better term a cult, Is that right?

Yeah, I was Growing up I didn't really realise, but obviously as you get older you start to realise that sort of thing, learn exactly what it was. It kind of seemed like a, just a normal, I don't know church when I was younger.

But as I got into early teens, started realizing how controlling it was. And then I think I also started to not I don't know if it was exactly the cult, but like I didn't really have a lot of faith in any religion, I sort of came to that decision and then I learned the real harsh truths of it by, like, when you stop going, your whole family like don't talk to you anymore, completely kick you out. Um yeah, it was uh kind of interesting so you were born into the cult.

Your parents were already a part of it, yeah, and they're still a part of it?

Yes, they are. I've only just sort of started talking to them again the last few years, since I've had kids and whatnot.

Okay, cool, We'll definitely get into more of that, but I do want to kind of hear about your experiences throughout your childhood and early teen years, whilst you were still in the cult. You know the things that you kind of saw and the things that you had to endure. So you said it was a religious cult, so it was Christ-based.

Yes yeah. They were very much into that you had to be baptized, but not like as a baby. Like the Catholics do you sort of have to do that. When you're about 13, 14, is when they kind of expect you to do that and allegedly receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and stuff okay, it's one of those.

One of those calls yeah, yeah rough it was.

It was because I never really I faked it, because I felt pretty left out, traded, you know what I mean like I couldn't understand why everyone else was and I wasn't. But turns out everyone was faking it.

From what I've heard talking to others that have left um, so when, when growing up in a cult because it's it's very much know all about devoting your life to God and all of that, there's really not much room to have an upbringing where you learn, like you know, science and other things that would probably be really helpful in regards to, like, understanding your own mental health and emotional intelligence your own mental health and emotional intelligence. Did you grow up feeling any type of mental health issues or having any type of mental health issues due to your surroundings?

Yes. So I always felt like I was slightly different which I then have learned out at a later age and got diagnosed with ADHD and autism, but they never in any of those mental health issues. They didn't believe in any medicines at all. You weren't allowed to see a medical practitioner, you just had to sort of pray about it and be healed, which had some interesting you know, things like I remember breaking my ankle when I was a kid and I wasn't allowed to go get a cast or anything, I just had to sit there and let it heal.

Yeah right.

Like you were saying about science and stuff, yeah, there were certain science classes I couldn't take. I wasn't allowed to do sexual ed at school. I wasn't allowed to do any of the religious educations, so I'd just have to sort of sit off by myself in the school library whilst the other classes did what they had to do, which you know can definitely make you feel like an outcast.

Yeah, definitely. So you went to a normal like integrated school.

Yeah, yeah, I went to a normal public school, but I just wasn't allowed to sit in some of those classes.

That would have been fucking hard, dude yeah yeah, you would have grown up feeling really insecure, like why am I so different?

and yeah, and having and already having that with the adhd and, uh, autism and then like that on top and all the outcasts sort of stuff that came with it, like certain movies we couldn't watch, you know, music and books we weren't allowed to read or watch. They were very controlling.

Yeah, right, and what would happen if there was any type of pushback or if you were found to be breaking rules?

So a lot of trouble and punishments. When you were younger, as I sort of got into an early teen, there was a lot of be like put out from the church so you'd have to stay at home and not go to church for a few weeks or whatever they deemed their punishment was, which now I realise wasn't really a punishment, it was kind of a holiday, a bit of a holiday. I did play into that at about 15, 16, you know I I sort of openly admitted to doing the wrong thing to um get put out before I built up the courage to leave anyway, just so that I could stay at home and not go to meetings and not get in trouble by my parents like I was like, oh no, I was put out like well, you know, what can you do?

and did you yourself witness any type of like abuse of power or violence towards other members or children of members, things like that?

uh, yeah, there was um a bit of that and also abuse there too. I was uh sexually abused when I was a teenager there as well by someone.

I mean I'm sorry to hear that that's fucking horrible man. But thank you for sharing. Totally fine if you don't want to kind of go into any more detail of that. I do understand that there from the research that I've done, there was or is investigations going of like pastors and things like that who have been, who are being investigated for sexual abuse of minors throughout the years that the cult has been active.

Yeah, I've seen some of that, and I know there's a case going on at the moment with one of the guys I grew up with that was only a couple of years older than me. That had also done a lot of that too. There's a case going on in the courts at the moment about him.

It's really fucking angers me. These people are put in this position of power and they say that they're living through the word of God and yet they can still commit such heinous and evil acts upon their fellow humans. Yes, commit such heinous and evil acts upon, you know, their fellow humans. Yeah, all for what? All for what? To get a golden ticket into the next fucking life.

Which is sort of where I came to the realisation. I was like, well, if that's where they're all going, I kind of don't want to go.

Yeah, yeah, straight up. If you're going to be in heaven, I don't fucking want to go. Yeah, exactly right. I in heaven, I don't fucking want to go. Yeah, exactly right, I'll take my son to the things, mate. So you were 17, you said when you left the church Is that right?

Yeah, yeah, about 16, 17. I finally built up the courage to leave.

And how did that look? Did you go to your parents first, or did you just kind of bail out or run me through the experience?

So I tried to get kicked out and it kind of backfired on me. I went to the pastor in charge and was like, look, this is everything I've done, like you know, having a girlfriend drinking, smoking, all sorts of stuff that wasn't allowed. They never did any of that and I was hoping to get, like you know, a big couple years of being put out. And he sort of went you can deal with it yourself and come back when you're ready and I was like, oh damn, that didn't kind of work. So then I went to my parents. It took a while.

It was a pretty hard thing to build up the courage to do because, like everyone that you've grown up with like just excommunicates you, like it completely wipes you out. And you know, the Geelong where I grew up like it's not that big of a town considering there was, I think there's about 800 members of the church. So I mean you couldn't walk through town without seeing a few of them. And knowing that, you know I'm gonna lose all my friends there, everyone I'd grown up with my parents. So it took a bit but I finally just uh, had had enough and had it had enough, I'd been living a double life at that point, like playing along at church and pretending I was that person, but also then going off with schoolmates and other things and living a semi-normal life.

And, yeah, I just built up the courage at about 16, 17 and was just like I'm done with this and told my parents I didn't want to go anymore. I didn't believe in God. Done with this and told my parents I didn't want to go anymore, I didn't believe in God, um, and they were basically like they tried to, you know, talk me into staying. But they were basically like all right, if that's your decision, there's the door. Nice, knowing you. Um, I had to move out and, um, get a job and pay for my last year of school. I was going to school and slept on a mate's couch and then slowly built up a normal life from there it's a lot.

It's a lot to uh protest a process for a 16 17 year old mate yeah, yeah, that is.

You know I I didn't process it the right way. A lot of it, you know I got into some mischief and a couple of addictions and those sorts of things. But yeah, I guess I've come out the other side pretty good, I think.

So I think we've known each other, I'd say for the better part of a decade. We met through mutual friends, yes, at some parties and whatnot, where we were both up to some mischief. And I just it was funny because I only found out, like maybe what? Two, three months ago? You divulged to me that you had an upbringing in a cult. I would have never known otherwise. I was just always like that Lockie's just a bloody lovely bloke.

He's got a good head on his shoulders, he's approachable, he'ske, he's got a good head on his shoulders, he's approachable, he's friendly, he's kind-hearted. You know, like all of these, you know lovely, touchy-feely things and then you know to find out you've had a pretty fucking hard slog. You know Not that people who have had hard slogs intrinsically are shit people or not kind in any way, intrinsically a shit people or not kind in any way. But I think it's a testament to the hard work that you've put into yourself. After the fact of leaving the cult, yeah, definitely, you've come out on the other side like you. Just you're a fucking good dude. So the um, so after you've, after you've left the cult, you've, you've moved out of' house, you said you've gotten a job paid for your last year of school. You're just couch surfing on mates' couches, is that right?

Yeah, pretty much, until a few of us got a house together.

Beautiful. So you've been in share houses essentially since you were like 17? Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, pretty much. Unless other than being in long-term relationships? Yeah, pretty much. Unless other than being in long-term relationships. Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, so you're now 36. We're the same age. So, essentially, 20-ish years after life in a cult, run me through those years from life after cult, the beginning of your life after the cult, to now I don't remember the first few years after it, honestly that's totally fair. I reckon there would have been a little bit of numbing of the senses.

Yeah, yeah, definitely Absolutely. And then, um, I don't know, just um working and, you know, living life I moved.

Have you had many? Have you had many different careers or have you kind of stuck to the same industries or Construction and civil mostly, but I have had a lot of different jobs.

but I think some of that plays into the ADHD and you know, either getting bored or losing interest, yeah. Yeah definitely yeah.

So you've got three kids. You said that your stepson, which we will just say is your son, yeah 13. And how old were your other two? Sorry, five and seven. Five and seven, okay. So tell me about eight years ago, when you first found out that you were going to become a father. Walk me through, uh, the ways in which your mental health and your upbringing played a part in your mind frame throughout that time at the start.

I was kind of excited at first. When I first found out I was like, oh, this is a bit of a shock, but all right. Then I think I started getting I read I didn't want you know it really, want you know it really. Uh, dawned on me like I didn't want to have any of my upbringing stuff put through on them. You know, I did get um a bit depressed after we had a miles um about just dealing with it all and the um, the stress of not turning out like my parents and that so it was just, it was um, it's kind of like a fear of failure yes, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, you know trying to uh break the cycles but, like you know, uh out of like in your head you've sort of got how you were brought up and how you were parented as a kid and then you're trying to like I know I was trying to fight a lot of that and how they parented and do it my own way, which was very daunting. Yeah, it took a lot to get used to, but I think I've finally sort of got the hang of it it's, um, it's.

It's incredibly hard work when you yourself were raised without the greatest of role models or the most supportive of people in your life. You're essentially writing a brand new book on parenting and you have to write every page every day, and sometimes you have to go back and scribble shit out and rewrite whole chapters, and it's just this ever-changing landscape of just absolute fuckery.

It really is, hey. And like you catch yourself all the time like going to say or do something and you're like, oh wait, no, like that's not. You know, that was just sort of bred into me, but you know, like that's what. I was used to growing up and then I don't want to be like that. So you've got to sort of catch yourself in the moment and stop. Yeah, a lot of like taking myself for a couple of minutes.

Yeah, I still do it as well, yeah yeah. I still do it as well. No one's perfect, but it's also. It's really great that we're able to be mindful enough to kind of once we've, once the words are out, there's no going back. But it's what you do in the aftermath. It's like I shouldn't have said that. I said that without thinking. That's not what I actually think, that's not what I actually feel.

Let me try that again and roll it back and I think one of the big differences is I've had a lot of those conversations with the kids and I've had a lot of conversations where I'm like even just having conversations because I don't, my parents didn't really talk about a lot like a lot of emotion, a lot of anything like. It was just, you know, hard and fast, this is how is. But I know I've definitely had a lot of those conversations with the kids and, you know, admitted, when I've, you know, had a slip up or I shouldn't have, you know, done this or that or said this or whatever, yeah, definitely it's sad.

It's sad to hear so many stories about people's you know, especially people our age and their parents just not being emotionally available in any way, shape or form. And if you were to ask for them to be emotionally available, it was turned down quite often with with um, with argument or violence.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So if you were to approach your parents back then to try to speak about emotions or anything like that, were they very just like dismissive. Yeah, you know, go pray to God, you'll be okay, kind of.

Yeah, definitely like that and didn't really talk about a lot of stuff.

To be honest, it was, I realized a few years ago it was mostly like a lot of small talk around the house.

There wasn't anything of depth and definitely no real emotions, which I've had big, long conversations with my sister now she left a few years ago. We didn't really get along growing up but I'm so glad of. We've had some like made up and had some like we've really got along now we're really close and had some big long conversations about growing up and everything we went through like I know, when I was running a muck and then leaving she was copying a lot of shit at home now we're taking it out on her and that sort of thing. But we've had some, yeah, real big conversations about how there wasn't much emotion in the house and she was like I remember she was telling me the other week about like she got in trouble one day, like she got smacked because she was crying and emotional and she was like smacked and told not to cry, which is, you know, a lot for a young teen to uh you know it's a lot for anyone.

It's a lot for anyone, mate yeah yeah, imagine imagine as a 36 year old being punched in the face for crying and saying that you're upset. Could you imagine what you would do now that you've had all this lived experience? Imagine someone being like stop fucking crying and hitting you.

Yeah, which is only going to make you cry. More like realistically.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're not wrong. It's like way to go. Mum and dad make it about you and not me. So you said your sister left a few years ago. Yeah, did she reach out to you? I'm guessing that you and her had zero contact after you left.

Yeah.

How long between you leaving and her contacting you or you guys getting in contact with each other?

we'd said like little things, like you know, happy birthday and whatever, throughout the years I guess, but um, it was. I left at 17, it's probably a good 10 or more years before we really started talking. There were some little bits, but then it was about five years ago. I think she finally left four years ago and um, that's, I think it was when I first actually was, when I first started having kids. That would have been about um seven years ago, when we had miles. That's when she sort of came around and started talking to me again too and was like congratulations and stuff and that sort of kicked it off, um, and then she said she wasn't, you know, gonna go anymore and left and um, uh, yeah, we've um. And then I think she came up to see me and that's when it really started. Like she came up to see me once we had miles and um, uh, yeah, just sort of made up and started catching up from there.

And is she your older sister or younger sister, younger, younger, younger? Okay, so did you. After you learned that she had left the church, did you feel like you needed to take on like a support role for her and guide her through life post-cult?

Yes, yeah, I definitely did. She didn't have a lot of contact with other people that had left. She was sort of doing her own thing. I guess that was kind of a good thing in leaving, was that other people that had been through? It and left that you'd known from previously, obviously would reach out and be like you know. Are you okay? Do you need anything?

so I knew I had to like sort of support her and help her with what I could. She was doing pretty well and focusing on her career and stuff like that at the time, so she was pretty good, but I was, yeah, I reached out to her and, um, made sure she was okay and said I'm always here and this is what you to expect, and you know, these are some of the things you're going to go through?

yeah, definitely now. You did mention before that you have had some contact with your parents in the last couple of years yeah that I think that having kids sort of softened them up a bit.

It's they're great with the kids. We are still on sort of you know, it's uh, still slightly awkward and there's it's still a lot of small talk.

I still don't have huge conversations with them, but they've been great with the kids okay, so they so they they actively are a part of your kids' lives and your life to an extent now, and they're still a part of the church.

Yes, which is wild. But they became a lot more lenient and I think they just realised they were going to miss out on the grandkids' lives.

Did you have trouble rectifying any sort of emotions within yourself in allowing them to have a relationship with your kids?

A little bit, and I still do, but I'm just glad that they're there for the kids. I did also have a lot of trouble with the fact that they're better grandparents than parents.

It's always the case, I think.

Yeah, that really brought up some shit, yeah, but no, they really are, are they've really been great. And I remember when they first so they first came up to queensland when we had miles um, and one of the biggest shocks, I think, for me was, um, they rocked up at the house and dad's like sat down on the couch and held baby miles. But mum realized straight away, or knew straight away, that you know, jayden would be feeling left out, being the bigger kid, so like as soon as they walked in the door I remember her running off and like taking him and playing cars on the floor with him and making sure he's never felt left out or anything like that. So, yeah, they really sort of pulled together for the For the grandkids.

yeah, Well, I mean, that is nice.

Yeah.

It pisses me off for you.

Oh, yeah, yeah, but sorry, I'm getting through it and going to therapy. It is what it is.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, so you're actively in therapy.

Yes.

Yeah, okay, and how long have you been doing that?

Three years ago, I think I realised two years ago. It was when I worked out that I had, or started assuming that I had, the ADHD and I went and got the diagnosis for that and found out it was ADHD and autism and then I started getting therapy along the lines of that and just trying to work everything else out as well.

Yeah, ripper, so you do actively go, like on a frequent basis, to therapy.

Yeah, yeah.

It's. I've been going out.

It's every third week, I think I go and see a therapist Beautiful.

And do you feel like, from prior to beginning therapy to now, do you feel like you've come a long way as far as your own mental health and your own understanding of yourself goes?

Yeah, I do it's still still. You know, I don't think it's ever something that's gonna be completely worked out or easy. You know, there's definitely weeks where you go in and go through some stuff and then you're like you're a fucking mess for the next week. But yeah, no, I definitely, I'm definitely doing a lot better after sort of sorting all that out and starting to go to therapy yeah, yeah, good, I'm glad to hear it.

It's, um, it's. It's quite odd because, as I said, we've been friends for about a part of a decade, um, but with you being in queensland and me being in victoria, we haven't had a lot of kind of face-to-face hangs. You know, there's been a couple of times where you've randomly rocked up at the house, being like I'm from Victoria or like parties and whatnot. But I do have to tip my hat and commend you because I have definitely seen and noticed a lot of personal growth just based off like social media, and to see you in your current life, thriving and happy and healthy, warms my heart, you too dude you too.

Honestly, I've seen a huge growth in you, and starting this was a big thing too and it was a big uh help for me as well, I think. Just, I think the whole um, mental health thing and how it's being talked about and worked out a lot more now and a lot more open is, uh, a huge thing, because it was definitely, definitely not talked about or you know this openly when we were growing up, god no.

And look, we've still got a lot of a a lot of work to do and a lot of change to get through, but I'm pretty chuffed that I get to be kind of a part of it. I remember talking to you before I launched the podcast about it and about what I was wanting to do and how I was wanting to do it.

And then we didn't talk for a while and I'd started releasing episodes and then I think you messaged me being like I've been listening to every episode and I just felt so fucking grateful, you know I was so proud of you for starting it.

You know, I think we've both grown a lot since we met, but from who we were when we met at parties um a long time ago to now is a huge growth and a big growth.

Yeah, yeah, mate, we're not the dirty little gremlins anymore. Well, maybe not to the same extent. No very good. So run me through what life is currently like for you.

I do understand that you have yourself a lovely partner I do, I do a lovely partner, I, I do, I do. So, yeah, I've got a lovely partner, um, who has been a huge help as well and is extremely um open and supportive in that mental health uh uh field uh working um constantly and co-parenting that's a a fun new challenge. That's also taken some you know getting used to and I have to go like that's a subject at therapy a bit as well, trying not to bring my emotions into the co-parenting. You know what I mean. Like you leave all that about and just do it for the kids yeah, being cordial and whatnot yeah, which is like it isn't that hard.

We're not, like you know, super nasty to each other or anything like that, but there are. You know. There are moments where stuff comes up and you have to sort of block your emotions out and just get through it yeah, so you, you were with you, with your kid's mum for quite a while.

It was only maybe what.

Like two, three years ago, you guys separated uh, yeah, so I was with her for 11, 12 years and then about two years ago we separated too, and a bit, I think Right about the time I was going through the discovering ADHD and that side of it we both coincided.

Did one have anything to do with the other, or was it just about the same time?

No, it didn't really. I it's funny. I actually I realized due to some memes actually, um, about the adh, yeah, yeah, I I read a meme one day and I was like damn, that's like that hits so hard. And then I went to the page, basically went through the entire page and was like every one of these is like so close to home, it's not funny. And then I remember getting onto YouTube. I like started looking up some stuff and I got onto YouTube and this uh lady on there that um talks about adhd stuff. I watched about four of her videos and was just a blubbering fucking mess and had never felt so understood before.

So I got straight on, yeah, getting into a diagnosis. It's funny because that's almost the same way I started my journey, like it was kind of it was partly my son going through his diagnosis for autism and my wife and I being, like you guys are a little bit similar, but I was. But I was also like there's no way I have fucking autism. I'd know by now, like because I had a very, very limited understanding of autism and just how much of a fucking spectrum it really is. You know, yeah, but it was TikTok. There's an Australian TikToker named Kobe Watts and he posts ADHD like funny clips and whatnot. Yeah, yeah.

I think George tagged me in one of them and I saw it and I was like holy shit, that is me. And yeah, like not long after I was like, yeah, I got the ADHD diagnosis. And then then as everyone on here knows, because I fucking talk about it constantly not long after that, was the autism diagnosis yeah, it's uh, it's an incredible tool, social media, in finding communities.

Yeah, and it pisses me off that there's a lot of people that are turning their noses up at it and saying that being diagnosed adhd and autistic or vice versa is uh, is a fucking trend it's it's not a trend.

It's just that everyone now understands that we're not alone that's exactly it, and I remember seeing a post one day about someone. Someone had put a post up saying, like you know, it never used to be around and now it's a trend that everyone's jumping on but it, I think it wasn't long after that I saw another one that basically rebuttaled that. Where they were, like it has been around forever. Like your grandma having no filter and saying stuff all the time and you know you couldn't touch her stuff in her house, it had to be a certain way. And your grandpa, like having a model train set and playing with that for 30 hours a fucking day, like yeah, it's always been around, they just didn't know, or didn't you know?

yeah, exactly right. I um, I saw that was similar. It was just like autism never used to be a thing. But you go to your family's house for a Friday dinner and your dad tells you to get out of the same chair that he's been sitting in for fucking 40 years. And they have the same dinner every Friday night and he watches his shows at the same time and goes to bed at the same time. Yeah, 100%, 100% yeah yeah, been wearing the same slippers for 30 years, yeah it's funny.

It's, it's autism now, but back then it's just, he's just particular. Yes, yeah, just set, set in his ways. That makes me laugh. And, um, I mean looking back and I hope my father never listens to this episode because I feel like he would be mortified. But the more I have looked through the autistic lens of life since my diagnosis, the more I kind of think, fuck, my parents were definitely on the spectrum sister and I have had big conversations about that.

I see a lot of um, adhd stuff in dad um, and it's funny I'm in a group chat on Facebook with all their family, like dad's family and stuff. That side of the family. A lot of them are in England and the UK and stuff, but they had they're always like, oh, we're a quirky family. And then a couple of weeks ago one of my cousins put in there like all right, we always say quirky, but you know, my son's being diagnosed. I've been diagnosed. Like who's actually had diagnoses and what are they? And a whole bunch of the family posted and they're all sort of starting to get diagnosed with stuff at the moment and it runs rampant through that side of the family.

But, um, my sister and I've had been having big chats and my mom is hard on the spectrum, like hard out on the spectrum. Um, I remember like we were talking about it and bringing up stuff that you know we'd thought of or seen. That fit into that and there was always this running joke we went and stayed at a holiday house years ago when we were kids. Under the fireplace they had a stack of newspapers to like be able to like start the fire with and they were all messy and mum pulled them all out and fucking put them all back in like super neat and that was her favourite day of the fucking holiday and we always had the running.

You put them in chronological order and then, yeah, now you look back at it with this and you're like, oh okay, all right, I get where she was going on that, yeah yeah, my mom used to um habitually clean my bedroom, and I always, growing up, I always assumed it was just to search my room for drugs and alcohol and all that sort of shit. But yeah, I definitely think back now, and she always put everything in the places that she wanted them to be put. Yes, everything was curated perfectly. Yes, and then every six months, I could set my watch to it. Every six months, she would rearrange my room, rearrange the house, and that's just how she was. My room rearranged the house, and that's just how she was.

You know, also had a gambling addiction, which is pretty rampant for someone that may or may not have been on the spectrum, or ADHD, impulse control issues, addiction issues, you know. Yeah, it makes me sad a little bit, because I wish that we could go back in time and have these resources available for people from other generations. Not only that, though, but they would have to be open to such things.

You couldn't go back too far, because if we had these resources available, then half the population would end up with a fucking lobotomy.

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Yeah.

And that's like the open things. Another thing, like I know definitely with the church cult, I remember multiple talks actually from the platform that, like ADHD didn't exist and they were just disobedient and needed to be punished and smacked more. So I think that was a big thing that played into like it not getting recognised or picked up in me as a kid.

Yeah, it's funny. You kind of look back to different kind of scenarios, or what was that saying? Idle hands are the devil's work, or something like that. Idle hands are the devil's playground, something like that. I'm just going to fact check myself Idle hands are the devil's playthings? Yeah, workshop, fuck them, something like that. It's just ADHD. It's not the devil, absolutely. I just fidget a lot because I lack a lot of dopamine. Yeah, so we'll get back onto track, because that was a massive, massive falling off the track, but anyway. Yeah, that was a massive, massive falling off the track, but anyway, yeah. So current life I also want to discuss your life as a incredibly talented graffiti artist, which is also another reason why we are going to bleep out your name and keep your face off social media.

Yeah.

So tell me a little bit about how that all started.

As a kid I was obsessed, but obviously it was heavily frowned upon. I mean it still is in most of society. I just I don't know what it was. It was the rawness and the colours and craziness of it all.

I just was obsessed with mostly your big pieces too, not all this little teenager tagging a personal property fence or anything like that, but just absolutely smitten by it, never really pursued it very hard as a kid or a teen, because I think also as a teen I sort of had a look into it and a lot of the people I met were pretty shady characters, because it can draw some of those sort of people. But a fair few years ago we moved back to Melbourne from Queensland for a little bit and I was working in melbourne and in the laneways all the time delivering stuff in trucks and I just it just kicked off again and that love for it came back um and I started drawing and sketching at home, bits and pieces. Then we had the lockdowns and I had nothing to do but sit at home and draw and sketch. And I met. I went to the paint shop to pick up some stuff and just paint a board at home and met the guy that owned the paint shop and was having a big chat. I think I was like meant to go in there for like 10 minutes and pick up some paint and I was there for like three hours. We talked for quite some time after that like online and whatever, and he took me out to do some stuff and meet a few of the boys up here and it just took off and it snowballed and in the last three years I've just, yeah, gone crazy with it.

It's probably like it's a good source of dopamine and all that sort of thing, but it's probably the least harmful addiction I could have or have had. I guess you could say but yeah, it's just a lot of fun and I just love creating stuff. I love drawing constantly, I love coming up with stuff going out. There's a few big legal walls up here, so we'll go and have out. There's a few big legal walls up here so we'll go and have. Or there's a couple that aren't exactly legal but like no one really cares that. It's the back of factories out in the middle of nowhere. The blind eye, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, they don't.

As long as you're there and you don't leave your rubbish and don't cause them, you know, break their windows or do anything stupid, they don't sort of care. We just go out there and there'll be like five, six, seven dudes, ten dudes, and we'll have big barbecues and just paint all day and do stuff like that bit of a bit of a family that you never, never had, hey, yeah definitely, definitely and it's just, it's taken off.

I've done stuff I never thought I would like with it. I've painted a couple of mates vans that like made camper vans and toured around australia.

Come up with logos for a couple shops you did an amazing sketch for my podcast, which I still to this day, um you know, have saved on my phone and my computer. I fucking love it it.

I felt so special. Yeah, I loved doing that. That was good fun. Yeah, yeah, I was just listening to you one day and I was just fucking doodling and then I was like, no, I'm going to do this.

Yeah, no, I loved it. Man, I lit up so hard when you sent that through, like I like ran into the bedroom where George was. I was like babe, look, look, look look. She was like she's always very kind of. She doesn't show a lot of emotion on the outside, she's emotional to her core, but she doesn't show a lot of emotion on the outside, but she goes unless he's cottons. He's a fucking wholesome guy. That's what she said. So have you personally ever had any um run-ins with the law whilst out painting?

or anything yeah, yeah, none where I've been in like court but yeah, definitely, but had had to leg it a few times yes, yeah, and I had one the other week where I got my first train and I know that might be frowned upon by some people, but I had to tick it off the list and there was a lot of security and whatnot there and we had a big chase after that but managed to get away.

Is that a part of the thrill, yes, or is that a part that you don't like? The chase.

No, it can be daunting, but a lot of stress and you're very, you know, sort of freaked out and whatever it's the, there's a huge the reward is worth the risk.

Yeah, there's a huge boost once you're gone and you got away and you're home safe and like you've made it and all, like you know a few of us on that one and we're all like, once we'd gotten away and sort of run off, we were like we did it, like we did it, we got it. It was a good one. Like you know, yeah, there's a big adrenaline boost.

The massive kind of two sides of graffiti and the debate that happens is whether it's art or not, and because of the tagging culture versus the graffiti like big pieces, culture gets lumped all into the one category by people that aren't a part of that culture. I, for one, absolutely hate tagging. I think it's gross and ugly and just shit and it's just. There's no artistic talent to it. But graffitiing like big pieces and the artistic side of that I think is really amazing and I absolutely love it. Melbourne has some of the best graffiti in the world and I love seeing, you know, beautifully done graffiti on trains, but it's the tagging on the inside of the trains that I fucking hate.

Yeah, I'm not.

I'm not about that either yeah, so how, if, if you were able to rewrite it and have, uh, you know the world according to to Lockie, how do you separate those things and how do you kind of figure out a treaty with the police and things like that? You did mention that there are some legal walls in Queensland.

Do you think there are? There are, there's usually like at least one in every town. It is funny, everyone hates it when it's happening and it's illegal. But then a lot of artists have become quite popular and gotten legal and get paid to do big murals and all that sort of stuff and then it's celebrated and kind of romanticized about when they were doing it illegally but at the time it's like frowned upon and everyone hates it.

It's a very I don't know, it's a very odd thing to me. I personally think the police have a lot better things to worry about than some dudes painting a fucking boring gray wall on the highway a colorful color, or you. You know, the side of the train lines is usually another one. Like they're just boring gray walls, we're putting some color on it, we're not hurting anyone. You know I I get kind of fired up about that because there's like what I think I read the other day there's like 4 000 plus untested rape kits sitting in the police stations in queensland but they're fucking chaining, chasing down a dude that put some color on a wall.

Like yeah, I think they have bigger and better things to worry about than that but yeah, it's like something like something like what 12 12 women have been murdered by their partners in australia in the last like three or four months and they're chasing people just doing some fucking art.

Yeah, and a lot of it is art. A lot of it is art and you know they're really getting some frustration out. Maybe they're dealing with some of their you know shit that's going on in their own lives. Yeah, it's like illegal, but you know they're going to put a pretty picture on the side of a highway or make your commute brighter and, like you know, they're not really hurting anyone. They're not out dealing drugs or breaking into places or doing other things that they could or you know do at the time smashing stuff up, that sort of thing. So I feel like it's pretty harmless for the most part and, um, yeah, there's so much bigger things to fucking worry about yeah, I agree.

unfortunately, though, it generally comes down to the uh, the shitty few who have to ruin it for the others, right to the shitty few who have to ruin it for the others, right yeah, the ones that are out there doing pieces that are offensive or not needed to be put on a wall, and then also probably dealing drugs along with doing that. There is a bit of that All of that stuff.

you know, it's definitely taken me some time to weed out Like I'm very selective about who I will hang out with and who I will associate with and who I uh want to paint with and that sort of thing. There are obviously some pretty low-life characters that get drawn to it, because it is kind of the uh underworld yeah scene always happens with any any type of counterculture.

You always have that kind of scourge. How do you, how do you solve that? Do you, do you think it would serve well to have some sort of licensing process where you would undergo like a police check to obtain, like a graffiti license?

obtain like a graffiti license?

I'm not sure, yeah, and I also think kind of you know, maybe a little bit of the draw is it's, you know, it is slightly illegal, or it is, it's part of the part of the thing. It's not mainstream is what I should say actually, um, yeah, yeah and that, but I don't know. I don't know how they fix it, I just maybe. I definitely think there should be more legal walls and it should be more encouraged. There was a big one put in in Brisbane a little while ago. It's a big waterway drain just near the city with a big walking path next to it. It's been there forever and they finally made it like. It used to get painted all the time anyway, but they finally made it legal, which is great. And you'll see you know some kids down there that are fucking 12 having a crack at it, and you'll see dudes that are like literally paid to paint other places down there, like trying out some new stuff.

So I definitely think there should be more of that, yeah, and there should be more of that and more you know spots that are legal and you might, you know, you might discourage it from being them doing it in the wrong spots and that sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah. I think that would be a good start to have more legal wars, like I'm glad that there are already legal wars happening. Definitely needs to be more, though.

There used to be a lot and then they sort of closed them all down. But there's still at least one in every town, I think, from the best of my knowledge. But, um, they definitely need to bring them back and do it again.

Bring up more. Yeah, sweet. Well, mate, I reckon that's uh, that's our time. Thank you so much for sharing your journey with me. It's, um, not only will I, not only do, I think the listeners will enjoy hearing about your journey, but I really enjoyed being able to get to know you on a more personal level after many years of friendship. Before we end it, is there anything that you would like to throw out into the world? Any?

thoughts for the listeners. I'm not off the top of my head, just keep putting out everything that you're doing and putting out all those companies that you talk about, like Panda and all that sort of stuff. Those things need to be more recognised and more out there in people's knowledge.

Ripper. Well, thanks very much, brother. You have a great day.

You too mate.

Cheers bye.